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Holy Grail War (Version 2)

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Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby RailWarrior » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:34 pm

Rules:
  • Players will be given a Servant class and be divided into two groups: Red Faction and Black Faction. No one will know anyone else's identity.
  • In addition to a normal Servant class, one player on each team will be given the Assassin class.
  • Each Servant will have a special ability (except Assassin). These abilities are listed further below.
  • When an ability is used successfully, the user's class and allegiance is publicly mentioned.
  • Communication via PM is allowed. However, there is to be NO screenshotting of information.
  • During each round, each player will send a PM to the Game Master. The PM consists of the following information:
    • The name of one other player. This will count as a vote towards that player. Votes are explained below.
    • Whether the player wishes to use his ability. If so, include all necessary information that comes with doing so.
  • At the end of each round, the GM will collect the votes. These votes are then sent to each team's Assassin. Each Assassin will decide between the top two voted players to kill. Alternatively, Assassin may elect to not kill anyone.
  • Each round lasts for 24 hours. The Assassin Phase ends as soon as possible, after both Assassins have notified the GM their decisions.
  • The goal of the game is to kill all enemy Servants.

Classes and Abilities:
  • Saber - Each round, players of this class have the option to reveal their identity to one random* enemy. In exchange, that enemy's identity is revealed to Saber. This ability cannot be used again until that enemy player is dead.
  • Archer - Players of this class may cast 2 votes. Additionally, each round, Archer has the option to reveal his identity to one random enemy. This enemy's ability is sealed for 3 rounds, including the round in which Archer used his ability. As long as this ability is in effect, Archer cannot use this ability again. Should this enemy player die while his ability is sealed, Archer cannot use his ability again for the rest of the game.
  • Lancer - Each round, players of this class may send a PM to the Game Master with a prediction of their death. If this prediction is correct, Lancer survives, and his assailant is killed instead. Should the prediction be wrong, Lancer's identity is revealed to one random enemy, and Lancer cannot use his ability for the next two rounds.
  • Rider - If Rider has a plurality of the vote, his vote count is cut by 50% (rounded up). These votes are redistributed two the second and third place players. In case of an odd vote count, the extra vote will be given to the third place player. Additionally, should Rider accumulate 4 vote reductions, he may rescue a random ally from an enemy ability. Rider's identity is revealed to both the ally and enemy.
  • Caster - Once per game, Caster may send a PM containing the name of a player to the GM. The declared player cannot be one who Caster officially knows. (Here, to "officially know" a player means that player's identity has been revealed to you as a result of his ability.) The declared player has his allegiance switched with a random player from his opposing team. Caster's identity is revealed to both players.
  • Berserker - Each round, Berserker has the option reveal his identity to one random enemy. This enemy is forced to use his ability. If that ability targets an enemy, Berserker is automatically chosen. This ability cannot be used again for the next three rounds.
  • Shielder - Each round, Shielder may PM the Game Master with the name of one player. Should Assassin target the defended player, said player will not die. Shielder's identity is revealed to the defended player. If Shielder successfully defends another player from Assassin, he receives one counter. By using a counter, Shielder may choose to defend himself for the round. The maximum number of counters Shielder may have at any point is one.
  • Saver - At the beginning of the game, Saver selects one random ally and one random enemy. Saver's identity is revealed to the enemy. If the ally dies and Saver is still alive, he is revived as if nothing happened--ability cooldowns and limitations remain in place. Once per game, before the start of the fifth round, Saver may change the player he revives by sending a PM containing the name of a player to the GM.
  • Avenger - At the beginning of the game, Avenger selects one random ally and one random enemy. Avenger's identity is revealed to the enemy. If the ally dies and Avenger is still alive, the enemy is killed. Once per game, before the start of the fifth round, Avenger may change the player he kills by sending a PM containing the name of a player to the GM.
There are no Faker nor Ruler.

*Regarding "randomness": Before the start of the game, the GM will generate a random number for each player for each round. When a "random" ability is used, players will enter a number (likely ranging from 1 to the number of players per team). The ability will affect the player who corresponds to that number. Everything will be recorded in a google spreadsheet and released after the game. Since revision history is visible, players can confirm no fishy business is going on.


Players signed up:
Momo
Reverend
shadowhunter
Toady
WankoMC
houreki
Homura
ezethan97
Corni
Last edited by RailWarrior on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:05 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby Momo » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:53 am

Can I play this time :3

Also question - if a players identity is revealed to everyone when they use their ability, doesn't that render the part in the abilities where their identity is revealed to enemy target useless?

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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby RailWarrior » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:32 am

Identity is not revealed. Only fact that, say, Red team has a Lancer is revealed.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby Reverend » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:34 am

WHAT NO RULER? BUT I REALLY WANTED TO TRY THAT OUT! :(

Screenshotting: I see no reason to ban that. It's always each person's discretion to trust or not trust a pic, or an information. And no one will trust screenshotting, either, after previous round's case :lol:

Saber no 2 lives? it gets to know but does not get to tell? Wao very lonewolf.
Archer: might as well make him able to use the ability every 3 rounds. Because it really depends on the length of the game, really, 3 rounds.
Lancer: Bye bye Master Troll :(. You are no longer important.
Rider no comment, since eze didn't get to use his power.
Caster: what did shadow said? I can't find it.
Berserker: Good. Berserker's ability was the counter for Archer's from the start, anyway. Btw next 3 round? is that 1 round of ability being used + 3 cooldown, or similar to Archer's "3 rounds counting from this one."?
Shielder: Good. I think the old Shielder was already balance, and this one doesn't change it. It can just defend itself after that, and the opponent will still have to guess whether it will do so, or continue being a devote and protect the previous person, instead? How that choice will play out, depends on the stage of the game, which also is nodiff than previous one. The most hax case will be if it just happens to defend from own team's assassin. If that's the case, then well congrats.
Saver: Saver doesn't know the one enemy and the one friend, right?
Also it's still boring.
Actually, it's even more. The old Saver, concluding from what the people said, would affect the game completely once it chose to use its abilty. The boring part and the difficult part that I really wanted to say but decided not to for the sake of peace of the previous thread, is that Saver really needed to thought out when and who to bring back. The old line-up... each class has its weakness, even Berserker. (bcs he's so scary anyone who had thought it just a little bit would not kill him first before making sure the whole line up.) And during those times, the only thing Saver can do to affect the game is by that 1 vote.
This Saver? Okay if you guys want Revive to be a hail mary ability, then sure. It's not like he's going to get to use his ability anyway.
Avenger: Instead it becomes boring, too. Same as Saver.


I'm just going to shout "My father is God. Angels and men, believe in me. Satan fear me." and pray they actually believe in what I said.
or maybe I should shout "A is Saver of the opponent's team" and pray my friends actually believe in me and he gets killed first.
or maybe someone could do that for me, so that I can be the one doing the leap of faith. It's always much fun being the one who has to jump.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby RailWarrior » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:12 am

I also prefer something more "active" for Saver and Avenger. If anyone has suggestions, please share. The biggest criterion is that Saver cannot "know" who he is reviving, so he cannot, say, choose WankoMC after WankoMC dies.

Who wants Caster troll ability? Once per game, Caster may declare (in PM) the name of one player he does not officially know* the identity of. That player's allegiance is switched with one random player from the opposing team.
*Players Caster "officially know" are the players who's identity has been revealed to Caster as a result of their ability.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby ezethan97 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:57 am

Will everyone know who Caster switched, or will only the players who were switched know?
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby shadowhunter » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:08 am

Wow, you accepted 1x1 on Mid Lane ability.
Maybe this ability is more useful?
Caster Revamped Ability v2 - Enjoy the Silence
For each round, Caster may mute one enemy (random or selected). Silenced player can't vote in next round. If that player dies, Caster may cast ability without cooldown. Otherwise, ability has 1 round CD.

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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby Reverend » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:14 am

Fun how the changes for ver 2 had seemingly reduced the power of communication and bluff and tactic in favour of total randomity, but the proposed troll ability of Caster practically gives the team a bail-out tactic that you had tried so hard to remove.

You know what? let's just take this troll Caster, nerve the old Saver bcs people hate me, and then use the rest of the old line up including Faker & Ruler.
We only had one game, after all. I still want to try the other role.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby shadowhunter » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:17 am

Also rip Reverse Double Kill Avenger dream. It's like you could kill a teammate when another teammate has died.

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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby RailWarrior » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:22 am

ezethan97 wrote:Will everyone know who Caster switched, or will only the players who were switched know?

The two players will know that they have switched sides. The two players who are switched will know who Caster is. No one will know who switched with whom (not even the two players themselves), but everyone will know that a switch occurred.

shadowhunter wrote:Wow, you accepted 1x1 on Mid Lane ability.
Maybe this ability is more useful?
Caster Revamped Ability v2 - Enjoy the Silence
For each round, Caster may mute one enemy (random or selected). Silenced player can't vote in next round. If that player dies, Caster may cast ability without cooldown. Otherwise, ability has 1 round CD.

Here's the thing. I want to stick with the Fate motif of "if a Servant uses his Noble Phantasm, he runs the risk of having his identity discovered." Revealing Caster's identity just to bar one player from voting is, if anything, a disadvantage for Caster.
Last edited by RailWarrior on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby RailWarrior » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:29 am

Reverend wrote:Fun how the changes for ver 2 had seemingly reduced the power of communication and bluff and tactic in favour of total randomity, but the proposed troll ability of Caster practically gives the team a bail-out tactic that you had tried so hard to remove.

You know what? let's just take this troll Caster, nerve the old Saver bcs people hate me, and then use the rest of the old line up including Faker & Ruler.
We only had one game, after all. I still want to try the other role.

The other version literally got decided by a single lucky occurrence. I would rather not have a repeat of that.
Faker is useless. Ruler instantly makes the whole anonymity concept redundant.

I would think this version actually promotes communication. You can't gather information by not talking.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby Reverend » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:49 am

RailWarrior wrote:
Reverend wrote:Fun how the changes for ver 2 had seemingly reduced the power of communication and bluff and tactic in favour of total randomity, but the proposed troll ability of Caster practically gives the team a bail-out tactic that you had tried so hard to remove.

You know what? let's just take this troll Caster, nerve the old Saver bcs people hate me, and then use the rest of the old line up including Faker & Ruler.
We only had one game, after all. I still want to try the other role.

The other version literally got decided by a single lucky occurrence. I would rather not have a repeat of that.
Faker is useless. Ruler instantly makes the whole anonymity concept redundant.

I would think this version actually promotes communication. You can't gather information by not talking.

In war, both factors are equally important, information-communication & randomity. I just found the old version has way better balance between the two, and just needs nerves and boosts on some roles, instead of a complete rework.
But choosing numbers are always random. Especially when the one who choose doesn't even know his own number.

I've given my input on each roles, though. I'm fine with trying this one first before making more inputs, also. Just... make sure both sides get a Caster (or no side get a Caster.)

You still want to change Saver & Avenger?
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby RailWarrior » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:28 am

The previous version doesn't require much strategic use of information. Everything is almost automatic. Assassin's team can pretty much guess who he will target, and instantly act accordingly.

Information here is random, sure, but selective sharing of information, and some leaps of faith, are required to put this information into effective use. At least, this is what I'm aiming for.

I'm still up for suggestions on Saver and Avenger.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby Reverend » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:56 am

RailWarrior wrote:The previous version doesn't require much strategic use of information. Everything is almost automatic. Assassin's team can pretty much guess who he will target, and instantly act accordingly.

Information here is random, sure, but selective sharing of information, and some leaps of faith, are required to put this information into effective use. At least, this is what I'm aiming for.

I'm still up for suggestions on Saver and Avenger.

That's only because people are actually that straigthforward to kill a revealed opponent directly, without counting the other probability.

What's the point of revive if you can't choose who are you reviving? Same with revenge.
Well, not that it matters. They're going to die first or second turn anyway. Not that anyone will believe in what I said anyway.

ps.: PM me my role when it starts, will you?
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby RailWarrior » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:07 am

Reverend wrote:What's the point of revive if you can't choose who are you reviving? Same with revenge.

...Did you read the ability description?
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby shadowhunter » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:19 am

Playing too, and will pray to get something except Caster and Rider since they are still useless.

P. S. Self-shielding is banned?

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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby Toady » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:23 am

Playing too!
Not sure about the balance of this new version and I feel like it will be too complicated to trust people. But let's see! =)
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby WankoMC » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:52 am

Well how about this.

Saver: Once per game, saver has the ability to reveal his identity (a.k.a the opposing side will know saver just activated his ability) to save an ally. If in that round, saver is not killed or muted/sealed, the ally is revived.

Avanger: Same as saver, after an ally dies, avenger has a chance to PM GM a name, the other team will know avenger just activated his ability, and has one round to either kill, seal him or defend their ally.

To prevent not having enough time to counter these abilities, whenever a similar ability is declared, the round is given an extra set of time (maybe 6 hours) so that the other team can find a proper strategy to counter them.

I also dont feel like playing with many random, but is willing to try the next game. Count me in~
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby Chibasa » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:14 am

Here a suggestion for Faker: Every round he can display an anonymous message, that GM shows along Night recap. Once a game, he can fake an information that GM will put in the night recap. Here some examples (I used Woody for added info).

Example A: Anonymous message

Spoiler for Night 3:
Saber had no idea what was going on. He had revealed his identity last night. He had made himself an easy target for the enemy faction.By all means, he should be dead right now. So why was he here, witnessing the sun rising to the fourth day of the war? Where the hell was the Black Faction?...Not that Saber was particularly adverse to the idea of living for another night, but still. A few hours ago, Archer...Assassin...had showed up. Archer merely fired a single arrow of light, which pierced through the barrier Shielder had cast on Saber, before disappearing,

Suddenly, a realization dawned on Saber. When Shielder's barrier is destroyed, the scattering magic particles don't just randomly disperse...they flow back Shielder himself. And when Archer disappeared, he had headed in the path of the particles.



Lancer of Black has been revived by Saver of Black.
Ruler of Red has used his ability on Kiwigiwi. Kiwigiwi is Archer of Red.
Assassin of Red and Assassin of Black have killed each other.
Toady, Archer and Assassin of Black, has died.
Homura, Shielder and Assassin of Red, has died.
Assassin roles will be transferred to different players.

Anonymous message: I think Woody is Black Baka.


Example B: Fake message

Spoiler for Night 3:
Saber had no idea what was going on. He had revealed his identity last night. He had made himself an easy target for the enemy faction.By all means, he should be dead right now. So why was he here, witnessing the sun rising to the fourth day of the war? Where the hell was the Black Faction?...Not that Saber was particularly adverse to the idea of living for another night, but still. A few hours ago, Archer...Assassin...had showed up. Archer merely fired a single arrow of light, which pierced through the barrier Shielder had cast on Saber, before disappearing,

Suddenly, a realization dawned on Saber. When Shielder's barrier is destroyed, the scattering magic particles don't just randomly disperse...they flow back Shielder himself. And when Archer disappeared, he had headed in the path of the particles.





Lancer of Black has been revived by Saver of Black.
Ruler of Red has used his ability on Kiwigiwi. Kiwigiwi is Archer of Red.
Assassin of Red and Assassin of Black have killed each other.
Woody, Baka and Assassin of Black, has died.
Toady, Archer and Assassin of Black, has died.
Homura, Shielder and Assassin of Red, has died.
Assassin roles will be transferred to different players.


Then, what must be revealed (Faker identity, power usage) and to who it is revealed can be discussed.
It could be noted he used his power in the recap. His identity can be revealed only to the guy the fake info is made about*.

*A bit strong if fake info is about an ally. Also maybe info can be made about a random ennemy like other abilities.



I like idea of not letting someone voting for Caster. Why not saying he sneakily destroys someone vote and when all votes are given only, his identity is revealed to the guy who lost his vote. It's dangerous to use ability but at least, voter have no idea his vote is discarded during whole round and can't re-organize with his team.
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Re: Holy Grail War (Version 2)

Postby Reverend » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:57 pm

RailWarrior wrote:
Reverend wrote:What's the point of revive if you can't choose who are you reviving? Same with revenge.

...Did you read the ability description?

What? The after 5th round thing? Unless people are really that much of a baka (or instead that much of an untrusting person) Saver'll be dead before that.

Well, but then again, humans are baka.

Oh yeah I forgot to ask: what happens if a Berserker uses his ability on a Saver/Avenger? Nothing? Or the ability is gone bcs it's like using Revive on an alive person?
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