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2017 ToC Proxy match

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2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby maglor » Thu May 25, 2017 3:10 am

We want a fun way to decide the 6th to 8th seeding for ToC 2018, so here it goes. To start with, here is what we already know about 2018 ToC Seed

Female

1: 2017 Tiara winner
2: Misaka Mikoto , the ToC 2017 winner
3: Chitanda Eru, the ToC 2017 Runner-up
4, 5 : Tachibana Kanade, Shana <- ToC 2017 Semi-finalist. The order doesn't matter because 4th and 5th seed meet each other for round 1
6 - 8 : Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko) , Itsuka Kotori, Akiyama Mio <- We have no idea to seed this, and anything we do won't be much better than random

Male

1: 2017 Secpter winner <- he gets a bye in 2018 ToC
2: Lelouch Lamperouge , ToC 2017 Winner
3: Sora, the ToC 2017 Runner-up
4,5 : Oreki Hōtarō, Accelerator <- ToC 2017 Semi-finalist. The order doesn't matter because 4th and 5th seed meet each other for round 1
6, 7 : Kirigaya Kazuto, Kinoshita Hideyoshi <- We have no idea to seed this, and anything we do won't be much better than random

Therefore, we need to somehow find a way to decide 6th to 8th seed in a way that isn't "staff decision". There also was competing desire for someone new. A Compromise was reached

So the compromise is

1. We will use a proxy for the all 7 + 6 characters that will be in 2018 ToC
2. The proxy must not be anyone that already had a match in ISML during 2017, with exception of nominations
3. The proxy must not be from Touhou as we need to use them for something else
4. The proxy must be of same gender as the character in question.
5. The proxy must be someone most people can easily see the connection to the character. The connection can be, and not limited to: from same series, having similar visuals, having similar personalities, often being in similar situations, similar dialog pattern, same voice actor, etc.
6. The proxy is preferrably someone famous and popular.
7. The proxy is preferrably someone who can do well in typical ISML matches, or at least someone we expect better chance compared to other available proxies.

The exhibition arena will have 7 character ( 6 for males ), and the result ranking will be used to determine the 6th to 8th position. Other positions are locked up, so the proxies for these characters are there for the "FUN".

If the god, avery, permits, the arena will use range voting. Each characters can be assigned a value between 0.0 to 10.0 in 0.1 increments. 10.0 is when the voter really, really likes the character while 0.0 is when the voter don't like the character at all. People are free to assign the value as they please, so they can assign everyone 10.0 if they want to. The default value will be 0.0, so if the voter don't assign any value to the character, it will treat the case as the character receiving 0.0 points from that voter. The sum of all points the character receives will be the one that determines the rank, higher the better.

Please post your thoughts and suggestions. I will keep a list of the candidates for each of the characters, and then make a choice near July 14th, perhaps sooner, based on all the inputs, including how many people favor choice of certain proxy for the character.

Shana

    Claire Rouge. Red hair loli tsundere
    Wilhelmina Carmel - same series
    Ayano Kannagi - red hair flame power and sword
    Hecate - same series
    Margery Daw - same series
    rei hino - fire
    Mathilde Saint-Omer - Previous flame hair from SnS
    Mine


Misaka Mikoto


    Misaka10032
    Misaka9982
    Last Order
    shirai kuroko
    Makoto Kino - Electric using, Onee-sama role
    Index
    Tear Lightning


Chitanda Eru

    Fuyumi Irisu
    Ibara Mayaka
    Kitashirakawa Tamako
    Izumi Reina
    Latifa Fleuranza




Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)


    suigintou
    Muramasa Senju
    Izumi Konata
    Toshino Kyouko
    Makishima Saori
    Gokou Tamaki
    Ogasawara Rinko




Itsuka Kotori


    Origami
    Reine
    Mana
    Naruse Mio
    Chutha
    Enju
    Rias Gremory <- red hair seemingly dominant while in truth they like being dominated in a romantic relationship heroine
    Mine
    douraku utage



Tachibana Kanade

    Iwasawa Masami
    ayanami rei
    Yin
    Leticia Draculea
    Iwasaki Minami
    ichinose kotomi
    Shiina
    Terminus Est
    Kozakura Marry
    Vanilla (Nekopara)





Akiyama Mio


    Tainaka Ritsu
    Kotobuki Tsumugi
    sonoda umi
    Sokabe Megumi
    Izumi Reina
    Akitsuki Fuuka
    Ueno Naoka ( Koe no Katachi )
    Isayama Yomi





Sora




    Kasuga Arata
    Petelgeuse
    Kasugano Haruka
    Kotomine
    Terence D'Arby





Accelerator



    Tsuchimikado Motoharu
    sesshoumaru
    Ureu Mono
    makishima shougo
    vicious from cowboy bebop




Kirigaya Kazuto


    Klein
    Andrew Gilbert Mills
    hiiraga saito





Oreki Hōtarō


    Narukami Yu
    Fukube Satoshi
    teufel diabolos
    Mashima Taichi
    Sakaki Inui
    Shikamaru Nara
    yoshida haru
    Nozaki Mayu




Kinoshita Hideyoshi


    Hyoudou Aoi
    Urushibara Ruka
    Watarase Jun
    Fujisaki Chihiro
    Hasuta
    Ciel Phantomhive
    Tsukimiya Ringo
    Kojuurou Shuri
    Sugita Hiromi



Lelouch Lamperouge



    Johan Liebert
    Setsuna F Seiei
    Kaito Kuroba
    Rheinhard von Lohengramm
    Schneizel el Britannia
    naraku ( Inu Yasha )
    Kururugi Suzaku
    Sebastian (Black Butler)
    Char Aznable
    Kotomine
    McGillis Fareed
    Jeremiah Gottwald
    aizen sousuke
    Oskar von Reuenthal
    Firo Prochainezo (Baccano)
    Shinra Kishitani (Drrr)



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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby Reverend » Thu May 25, 2017 8:43 pm

Note: Tear Lightning is only there because she has nice name.

tbh, now that I am more fresh, I think this thing is unnecessary and very difficult, near impossible to do fairly.
Unnecessary because you already have their performance records as judging method (plus people sadly won't really care because seeds "are a little bit too mathematic" for most of us idiots in statistics. Plus not that it will matters since they're going to lose 1st round anyway *runs* )

Very difficult, near impossible to do fairly because of:
- as you know very very well, the total fame of a certain character are mainly made of two reasons: their own personal fame, and the general fame of her/his origin series. What does personal fame consist of and what does general fame consist of, I don't think I need to explain. But the problem is the ratio of effect of these two elements to a character's fame is different.

- Now, we can assume (though it's not really true) that each of these girls who have ever won the tiara were exceptionally more famous than the other characters, and sometimes the series itself :P. Thus we can say that if we remove them and choose stand-ins for each of them, and by some miracle we can make each of the stand-ins have similar fame level, we basically achieved our obligation of making an equal play ground. But the other goal that is, in your words, "to make people (who don't follow forum) get it" can't be assured.

- Another option ofc is to go for fellow character from same series. People will (probably, idk though I don't think I will if I don't follow forum, but I'm a baka anyway) get it. But imo it will not achieve the "fair play ground" obligation we have as organizers. I mean: would Shana fans vote for the series if the one representing the series is Margery Daw (for example?) Did Margery's fans even voted for Shana all these years? This is especially true in a harem series that have more than one girl with strong base. (no need to mention lol)
Also the problem with this is: not everyone vote for the series. As you know, lots of the fanbase are fetishes fanbases. For example: Dem long black-haired lovers that voted for KYH, Ayase, Eru, and in the past Mio, voted for Mio bcs she has long black hair. Would they vote for Ritsu (for example) ?
Same reason as in why Shiro (NGNL) doesn't perform as good as Kotori despite her prospect during her days from seasonals: she's not red-hair tsundere.
And I haven't even mentioned the seiyuu fanbases.


Thus, I implore you to find another method to solve this. Or just go tyrannical and decide the 6th-8th seeds yourself.
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby maglor » Thu May 25, 2017 9:49 pm

Without matching the characters directly, which is the thing some wanted to avoid, any method to decide 6th to 8th seed is not much different from random draw. We can simply uncouple the event from seed determination.
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby Reverend » Thu May 25, 2017 10:18 pm

maglor wrote:Without matching the characters directly, which is the thing some wanted to avoid, any method to decide 6th to 8th seed is not much different from random draw. We can simply uncouple the event from seed determination.

why did some-san want to avoid matching the characters directly?
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby Veon » Thu May 25, 2017 10:53 pm

maglor wrote:5. The proxy must be someone most people can easily see the connection to the character. The connection can be, and not limited to: from same series, having similar visuals, having similar personalities, often being in similar situations, similar dialog pattern, same voice actor, etc.

Pretty much imposible. No matter who you put as proxy, large majority of voters would not make any connection to past winners, until they are told that there is one. Even then there is high chance that many people still would not make any connection at all.

maglor wrote:Without matching the characters directly, which is the thing some wanted to avoid, any method to decide 6th to 8th seed is not much different from random draw.

So instead of just random draw, you create strange idea's that are not much different from random draw? Well if that's what staff wants...

Btw.
maglor wrote:Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)
    Toshino Kyouko

This one is odd. I know both characters really well, I know about about this proxy idea, but I still can't make any connection at all. -_-
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby renfire » Fri May 26, 2017 1:45 am

I liked the idea. Only 6th to 8th seeds doesn't really matter compared to using this system for whole seeding.

My suggestion is that the 6th to 8th seeds proxy must be as close as possible in "moe power level".

I think some characters is too overpowered, maybe it is better to not use them. Also, I prefer using proxies with same qualities rather than from same series. It is more fun that way. Note that characters from the same series might have similar qualities.

As for the character suggestion:
Spoiler:
Shana : Claire, Mine
Misaka: Honestly I don't think there is good option among them
Eru : Ugh, all the characters too strong or they all from the same series. Maybe Tamako
Ruri : Suigintou, Senju, Saori, Tamaki & Rinko, all is ok.
Kotori : Mana
kanade : not kuudere fan, idk
Mio : Ueno & Reina is good because new but I think they are too strong. Maybe Fuuka but less resemblance
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby maglor » Fri May 26, 2017 4:23 am

Reverend wrote:
maglor wrote:Without matching the characters directly, which is the thing some wanted to avoid, any method to decide 6th to 8th seed is not much different from random draw. We can simply uncouple the event from seed determination.

why did some-san want to avoid matching the characters directly?


I think he is sick of seeing all the clone voters for certain character(s).
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby maglor » Fri May 26, 2017 4:26 am

Veon wrote:
maglor wrote:5. The proxy must be someone most people can easily see the connection to the character. The connection can be, and not limited to: from same series, having similar visuals, having similar personalities, often being in similar situations, similar dialog pattern, same voice actor, etc.

Pretty much imposible. No matter who you put as proxy, large majority of voters would not make any connection to past winners, until they are told that there is one. Even then there is high chance that many people still would not make any connection at all.

maglor wrote:Without matching the characters directly, which is the thing some wanted to avoid, any method to decide 6th to 8th seed is not much different from random draw.

So instead of just random draw, you create strange idea's that are not much different from random draw? Well if that's what staff wants...

Btw.
maglor wrote:Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)
    Toshino Kyouko

This one is odd. I know both characters really well, I know about about this proxy idea, but I still can't make any connection at all. -_-


More like we have already made certain room for which there is a preferred way to fill in the Topaz Necklace. Kyouko was recommended to me because she is an anime/manga/game fan or something. If it isn't true, may be I do need to replace her.
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby TearsMemory » Fri May 26, 2017 7:50 am

somebody loves the champion, not the animation
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby Reverend » Fri May 26, 2017 9:32 am

maglor wrote:
Reverend wrote:
maglor wrote:Without matching the characters directly, which is the thing some wanted to avoid, any method to decide 6th to 8th seed is not much different from random draw. We can simply uncouple the event from seed determination.

why did some-san want to avoid matching the characters directly?


I think he is sick of seeing all the clone voters for certain character(s).

For in much wisdom [is] much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

I think you should choose which one is more important: representing the character as best as we can, or making sure people get it and vote with the champion they are representing in mind, so that the stronger girl between the weakest get better seeding?
As I said, the ideal condition is if we can do both. But that would be difficult as hell.


ps.: I myself prefer #1 and rub out this seeding method thing that was the reason I made that post about "a fair play ground" in the first place. Lower seeds are going to lose on 1st round anyway. (well, except Kuroneko, maybe, if she gets easier opponent.) Let's just have fun.
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Re: 2017 ToC Proxy match

Postby maglor » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:05 pm

place holder


Spoiler for scratch 1:
Itsuka Kotori, Akiyama Mio, Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)



Spoiler for scratch 2:
Kinoshita Hideyoshi
Kirigaya Kazuto
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