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Holy Grail War (End)

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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby RailWarrior » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:34 am

Homura wrote:
RailWarrior wrote:I mean, no one else's description says that either, so why is Ruler being singled out? I treated each class in the same manner.

What? Let's say I'm Shielder of Red, in round 1 I randomly use my ability on ezethan of Black, and ezethan happens to be the target of Assassin, and the confrontation between ezethan and Assassin is included in Night 1. Will then everyone know team Red has a Shielder? Or the failed assassination won't be mentioned at all, so neither will the Shielder be.

Shielder would have been referred to as Shielder of Red due to successful use of an ability. Assassin's success or lack of success is irrelevant here.

Also in Night 2, Avenger of Red (houreki)'s death could have been caused by the ability of Avenger of Black, with Black Assassin choosing not to kill. Let's say the Black Avenger sent you the name "WankoMC" at the start of game, and later (in round 2) he sent you the name "houreki". By Avenger's ability, the time Wanko dies, houreki dies too.
Let us suppose there was indeed an Avenger of Black who named WankoMC and targeted houreki. Now consider the situation where Assassin of Red kills WankoMC. The actions are resolved as follows (because Assassin, as mentioned, has the lowest possible priority)

0) All other abilities are resolved.
1) Assassin of Red kills WankoMC
2) Avenger of Black kills houreki
3) Assassin of Black kills ___ (let's say Assassin also targets houreki)

Now, if houreki dies, to an outside observer, this can be due to either Avenger or Assassin. That means if houreki dies in this case, Avenger must be mentioned in the scenario; otherwise, there is no way to deduce the killer.
But, Avenger was not mentioned, so that means it's possible to deduce the killer with just the information provided. So it could only have been Assassin of Black.
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Homura » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:13 am

We indeed couldn't make sure houreki's death was caused by Assassin or Avenger at the time.

So all in all, just to make it sure, whenever a player's ability succeeded, his identity (class & team) either will be clearly revealed in the story (like the Ruler of Red in Night 1) or can be relatively easily deduced from the story (like the Archer of Red in Night 2), right?
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Kiwigiwi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:39 pm

I actually suspect Chibasa was faker.. but there were several reasons why I didn't call him out on it yet.

The biggest reason was our ruler. I was confused about Rail highlighting Ruler's color as red.. because not only did Fuiji expose my class (despite knowing i'm a teammate), he didn't try to contact Shadow when he had been exposed as Saber of red.

Then there's the fact I wholeheartedly trusted my teammates when they said they verified Chibasa's identity. I understand it isn't their fault but I still feel kind of stupid now for not calling him out.

I suppose the red team never had a chance in the first place.
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby shadowhunter » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:57 pm

Kiwigiwi wrote:I actually suspect Chibasa was faker.. but there were several reasons why I didn't call him out on it yet.

The biggest reason was our ruler. I was confused about Rail highlighting Ruler's color as red.. because not only did Fuiji expose my class (despite knowing i'm a teammate), he didn't try to contact Shadow when he had been exposed as Saber of red.

Then there's the fact I wholeheartedly trusted my teammates when they said they verified Chibasa's identity. I understand it isn't their fault but I still feel kind of stupid now for not calling him out.

I suppose the red team never had a chance in the first place.


Sorry for losing game when I was fooled by photoshop mad skills. Though if someone cough contacted me, when I said Red team contact me, we could screw a Faker. Anyway, Black team had an OP Saver servant. Also, 5 vs 5 is too small, though even in this battle we had an afk player.

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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby WankoMC » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:05 pm

I suppose I should voice my thoughts as well.

About what Kiwi said, at the time I believe Fuiji had no ideas Kiwi was his teammate (as he did not contact anybody). In this game, I expected that some people would hesitate, or for some reasons, do not contact his team. In our case, we had to contact Ezethan on our own too (Ofc only after deductions). So that should more or less explain the confusion.

Now, my opinion about the faker might worth less as a member of the winning faction, but let's be real, that's basically the only way faker could have fulfilled his role in this round. And even so, he was still playing with the risk that Fuiji might pm the red team in any time. In that sense, we have a bit of a luck factor on our side. I truly hope there would be no hard feeling after this.
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Chibasa » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:33 pm

I think using screen of GameMaster PM isn't supposed to be part of the gameplay in first place. It's change a lot balance of roles and feel out of place to use pre-settings elements as evidences (to me at least). Would we ask screen of role in Secret Hitler or game of the kind?

I didn't planned to go that far, at start my plan was to contact shadow to try gather informations cause our current situation with Toady exposed was advantageous for Red, and fact Faker 's power is pretty weak wasn't really helping our team. Plus Red team was about to know each member of their team if no black member try to fool Shadow. But I didn't expect the screen (didn't expect people would trust each other 100% but was expecting biggest interest of the game would lie there actually).Then or I was discovered as black trying to fool shadow or I was PhotoShopping my PM, it's actually pretty fast to fake a PM, so fast that I made a typo in my role *cough* but thought would be pretty weak to feedback on my role balance without pushing it to its limits.

Now that screening PM won't work I expect next game going a bit more as expected (?).

here goes my feedback:
=> More players game will have, better it will be (reducing luck impact on early kills, like for hou-chan)

Balance part: =>Saver must be a bit boring and OP at same time. Balancing it is a possibility (we talked about adding a cast time with red team).
=> Shielder is other role I find a bit OP for now, didn't think about any solution to suggest yet however.
=> Faker seems weak, especially if he can't even trick watchers (changing that, may balance watcher too, without needing have one in each team maybe?).

=> I think put what you(Rail) discussed with Homura in Rules/Guidelines may help new players if we have some next game, then overall I think it was pretty good game, timing between round felt correct to me, there is enough things to take care off to play seriously but it's possible to play with not a lot of time too.

Also I invite all players to feedback as much as possible too, if everyone have same feelings about a class, may be good to know for Rail, if people disagree, maybe means class is balanced.

Also, thanks to my team for helping and sorry for red to trick em :3 *hides behind Woody*
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Homura » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:16 pm

shadowhunter wrote:
Kiwigiwi wrote:I actually suspect Chibasa was faker.. but there were several reasons why I didn't call him out on it yet.

The biggest reason was our ruler. I was confused about Rail highlighting Ruler's color as red.. because not only did Fuiji expose my class (despite knowing i'm a teammate), he didn't try to contact Shadow when he had been exposed as Saber of red.

Then there's the fact I wholeheartedly trusted my teammates when they said they verified Chibasa's identity. I understand it isn't their fault but I still feel kind of stupid now for not calling him out.

I suppose the red team never had a chance in the first place.


Sorry for losing game when I was fooled by photoshop mad skills. Though if someone cough contacted me, when I said Red team contact me, we could screw a Faker. Anyway, Black team had an OP Saver servant. Also, 5 vs 5 is too small, though even in this battle we had an afk player.

All faults go to me this time. I sincerely apologize for my naiveness. shadow, almost right after telling you to ask people to provide screenshots as proof, the possibility of faking screenshots via Photoshop occurred to me. But I just firmly believed "Who would do that? especially for a testing game", so I never spoke that out, even when the "Ruler of Red" thingy happened. I'm so sorry, I can only say all that my confidence came from nothing than naiveness. I feel like I was a 5 year old tbh. Also, I told you to make that public call for Red members because I knew well one or two people were not that active in this game, and in case they were on our team and wouldn't contact you by their own will, that public call could serve as a vivid reminder. But in the end Fuiji didn't ever contact us. And such irony made me feel even worse. Anyway, shadow, Gara, houreki, good luck in next game~
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Reverend » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:12 pm

WankoMC wrote:Ofc only after deductions

"deduction"
baka fuiji so baka ^^;

Yeah, though, Kiwi is right. Red team has no chance, bcs it's basically 4 v 5 thanks to Fuiji being busy.
*removes a long analysis of how the game should have gone if only it was 5 v 5*


ps.: Btw, you people overestimate Saver. It's effing difficult, you know? Timing when to revive and which to revive. Not to mention, ofc the one being revived would already be revealed. And ofc once per game ability are reset to 0, even if it's not used yet before death (though Saber still gets two lives.) Saver cannot lie, because if he lies and get found, then RIP the team probably (bcs Rail built this team pretty fairly, if you've noticed.) Also Saver's move can only be used to people who have died. So, like, I can't revive Toady immediately after he died. I'd have to wait til the next round if I want to revive Toady, which means that I would have to make my team have at least 1 vote deficit for at least 1 more round, which you'd realize it would have meant a lot if you do the math correctly. Also I need to fear about Archer's sealing ability (which, as you can see, Rail didn't state directly that Potato successfully Potato-ed Kiwi.) The only info I had was Toady's Black Archer, and that, too, was by luck, since who would have thought that shadow was kind enough to spoil it to everyone? Since Rail keeps fairness at all cost, then there must also be a Red Archer. If Kiwi had kept her seal for a more substantial opponent than Master Troller Lancer of Black, I'm sure she would have used it on me, since out of all 3 remaining options available to her, I was the one most active at the time. Also, the fact remains that people will not believe a Saver directly anyway if you tell them what are your role. Hell, if Wanko didn't get notified by Rail that I was about to use my ability on him, he wouldn't have believed that I was Saver of Black. Imagine if he didn't. Imagine if either Wanko or I was asleep when Wanko got the PM. And that too after the luck shot over best role in the game balance-changer compulsive gambler Double Kill Avenger, the one person that can really change the mood of the game in an instant. So Saver is only OP bcs we all were noobs. We will no longer be noobs next game, won't we?

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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Kiwigiwi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:34 pm

You make it seem like Archer's ability to seal someone is easier to use than Saver.

Let me tell you why you're wrong.

Saver's ability is designed to be used on a teammate. Archer's ability is designed to be used on an opponent. You are more likely to know the class of your teammate than an opponent, making strategizing who to revive much easier. You can choose to wait for a more important teammate like lancer to die and use it on him. All you have to do is just go "i want to revive xxx player' and he will be revived in the next round with ALL of his abilities restored.

Can you imagine how stupid i felt when it was revealed lancer is back and i just wasted my seal on nothing?

Archer's seal takes timing and knowledge.

I need to use my ability BEFORE my opponent uses theirs (aka i need to use my ability on the same round my opponent does). No opponent with a basic intelligence would tell someone from the opposing team they were gonna use their ability; and even if they did.. what class are they? I may mistakenly seal Saber's ability in an attempt to stop Saver from reviving someone.

I was just incredibly lucky to have guessed that since lancer of black is exposed, all my teammates would logically vote for him..and since i knew lancer of black is also aware he is in danger, he would use his ability.

But then he gets revived in the next round. Because who needs strategy and intelligence when you can just press a "revive" button.

I get wanting to defend Saver's ability but don't make it seem like archer's ability is easier to use than Saver's who can just wait for someone to die and send a pm without thinking. If Saver's ability is THAT difficult to use in your definition, than having to predict your opponent and use archer's ability is like playing darts while blind.
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby shadowhunter » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:13 pm

Who wants a salty list of Mad (Bad) Balance?

Of course, you won`t accept them anyway.

Saber Revamped Ability - 1x1 on Mid Lane
Saber have 1 life.
Saber can reveal his identity to his enemy only, knowing the same info about enemy. If enemy dies on next round. Saber can use ability again. Otherwise, ability will have a one round cooldown.

Archer Revamped Ability - The Destroyer of Magic
Archer have 2 votes.
Archer can disable ability of random enemy (without knowing identity and not getting it after usage) for 3 turns. If enemy survives, Archer can use it one more time in whole game. If enemy is dead, Archer can't use it anymore.

Caster Revamped Ability - Master of Puppets
Caster can manipulate one vote of enemy team. Example: Player A is Red and got 3 votes (the most in his team), Player B is bBlack and got 4 votes (the most in his team). After ability: Player A - 4 votes, Player B - 3 votes. If this results in enemy death, Caster can re-use ability. Otherwise, one round CD.

Saver Revamped Ability - The God That Failed
In first 3 rounds of game Saver chooses one player who will be revived in case of death. Revived player won`t have active/passive abilities.

Avenger Revamped Ability - LVL? Death
For each death of ally, Avenger has a 20%/40%/60%/80%/100% chance to kill random enemy. 20-80% cases decided by RNG from 1-5.

Berserker Revamped Ability - Sandstorm
If Berserker dies, one random enemy is killed too. At next round, no one from ally team can`t be killed.

Faker Revamped Ability - No Photoshop
Game Master gives Faker list of enemy team classes. Faker chooses one of them as his dummy role.

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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Reverend » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:39 pm

Kiwigiwi wrote:You make it seem like Archer's ability to seal someone is easier to use than Saver.

Let me tell you why you're wrong.

Saver's ability is designed to be used on a teammate. Archer's ability is designed to be used on an opponent. You are more likely to know the class of your teammate than an opponent, making strategizing who to revive much easier. You can choose to wait for a more important teammate like lancer to die and use it on him. All you have to do is just go "i want to revive xxx player' and he will be revived in the next round with ALL of his abilities restored.

Can you imagine how stupid i felt when it was revealed lancer is back and i just wasted my seal on nothing?

Archer's seal takes timing and knowledge.

I need to use my ability BEFORE my opponent uses theirs (aka i need to use my ability on the same round my opponent does). No opponent with a basic intelligence would tell someone from the opposing team they were gonna use their ability; and even if they did.. what class are they? I may mistakenly seal Saber's ability in an attempt to stop Saver from reviving someone.

I was just incredibly lucky to have guessed that since lancer of black is exposed, all my teammates would logically vote for him..and since i knew lancer of black is also aware he is in danger, he would use his ability.

But then he gets revived in the next round. Because who needs strategy and intelligence when you can just press a "revive" button.

I get wanting to defend Saver's ability but don't make it seem like archer's ability is easier to use than Saver's who can just wait for someone to die and send a pm without thinking. If Saver's ability is THAT difficult to use in your definition, than having to predict your opponent and use archer's ability is like playing darts while blind.

eh I never said Archer's ability would be easy to use. I just said I was fortunate that you made a mistake. But that's not completely your fault, since it was difficult in the first place, and it's Wanko, and it's Lancer, and as I said in the conclusion: we're all noobs. Why the hell are you getting salty, instead?

I'm going to avoid replying salty comment with salty comment, else this will never be over.
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby RailWarrior » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:11 pm

In my opinion, Shielder is way more OP than Saver. The only thing is that Black outplayed Homura in every turn, which doesn't have anything to do with balance of classes.

Round 1: Shielder defends houreki
Round 1 Votes:
Rev - 3
Homura - 2

Round 2: Shielder defends Homura
Result: Black kills houreki

Round 3: Saber uses ability. Shielder defends shadow.
Result: Black kills Homura
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Kiwigiwi » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:19 pm

I never said anything about Shielder. Like Chibasa pointed out, I do think Shielder has a powerful skill as well. The problem is that Chibasa was a spy who told his team to kill whoever Homura wasn't shielding.

I was just making a point that Saver takes little to no strategy. If you think Saver's ability is balanced, that's your opinion. But as someone who was screwed over, I think I'm entitled to voice my opinions as well. I don't think reviving someone in itself is overpowered but reviving them with their ability restored is a bit much.
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby RailWarrior » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:47 pm

"Balance" only makes sense when comparing teams as a whole. There's no question Saver's ability has a higher-than-most-others potential to turn the tables. But such abilities are present in any other game. The point is to have an opposing team who could counter Saver's team. Whether Red team could have done so, I don't know. It's only been one game.
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Re: Holy Grail War (End)

Postby Chibasa » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 pm

If Kiwi had kept her seal for a more substantial opponent than Master Troller Lancer of Black, I'm sure she would have used it on me, since out of all 3 remaining options available to her, I was the one most active at the time.


I'm not sure about that, it would be so different that you can't just guess what would happen. They could totally seal Ezethan or Fuiji, actually Fuiji was very possible, as supposed Black Ruler. But it's too unpredictable to make a point about it :3

But if other team need to focus you, it's mostly cause you have indeed most efficient role of the team. With biggest advantage that you can't fail reviving , by reviving someone in other team for example, unlike most other powers like Shielder, Ruler ect..., if you decide to act, it's successful, and even if you revive a faker (which seems worst case), it's still one more vote and one more target to shut down for opponents which is strongest move of the game.

Not mentioning you can have 100% trustful connection with revived guy, which mean you can team up for votes safely and revived guy power comes back.

Just imagine reviving a Berserker now. ^^;
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