ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

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Total votes: 38
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by RailWarrior » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:47 am

I kind of agree that the group stage/play-offs clause is unfair.

I didn't even bother voting in the play-offs because I was (and still am) rather new and not familiar with the members. I only started voting in the group stages after I got a general sense of their character from reading posts. Some people may find that it takes longer to adjust to the environment and so not take interest in the forum tournament until the final stages of competition. Should those votes really be discounted?

The extra-forum campaigning is a different matter. I agree that's just plain cheating.
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Grish » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:05 am

mazza411 wrote:I know that this is JLoable's tournament so he can make the rules that he likes, but "If you haven't vote at least once in the group stage/play-offs, you can't just start voting in the knock-out phase. So if your first+second tournament votes are in the knock-out phase, those won't count" doesn't really seem to be fair.
...
(is this rule new? I don't remember it from when I read that post at the start).
I don't recall seeing that rule before either, but perhaps I didn't read closely enough? For the sake of consistency and fairness, I think it should probably stay if it was there from the beginning (or else there might be people who could have swayed the previous matches but were banned from voting then), but if it wasn't, this really isn't the best time to add new rules.

I don't know what Jerro's criteria are for being an active member either. Perhaps it would be best to explicitly state how this is determined, so that everyone can be certain of whether they are permitted to vote or not.

If we clarify these rules and then do a rematch tomorrow alongside the next match, will everyone be satisfied?
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by kanohistorm » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:38 am

you guys got to remember that is a tradition that was created for fun. this forum doesn't get a lot of upturn in terms of new membership that posts regularly after a month or two (last year, it was a negative number). Most new membership that sign up only talk ISML results and policies/changes and rarely show up for the lighter side of things. You may say this is a forum circlejerk of sort, but in reality it mainly allows for bonds that have been created over time through chatting and games to manifest itself in the form of a tournament (that once again, is for fun). Afterall, you can't exactly vote for moe based on our username and avatars alone.

While the veteran guys like me have mostly been voting for other veterans, the new entries are doing so likewise, and even gone ahead and more or less banded together under some 'just cause' (no pun intended). Which isn't exactly your fault nor mine, just that the interaction between veterans and newbies have been limited, with only desufire and ebby (plus staff) that frequents and posts in the results and related threads. We are actually very lucky to have this many new members joined us for the course of the 2014 season and while most of you stay in the results and etc threads, a lot of you have also participate in other unrelated community events from seitokai, H/H, polls and even helping me in the AnimeAnnouncements thread (for that, Im grateful even though I don't add everything you guys listed for certain reasons such me doubting there is actually much interest in certain adapatations)

As far as voting policies goes- it's not intended for this event to be exclusive, but to reinforce that people are voting are actually invested in the social part of the forum. I would also like to raise the issue that any forum member who "aren't qualified" to vote in vote in the knockout stages, but would like to, to pm Jerro for an exemption to at least show they aren't someone who is voting for someone just because they been asked to.
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by DarknessHid » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:06 am

Honestly, I'm okay with whatever people want to decide with the result, even if it goes as far as disqualifying the both of us. If need be, I'm fine with just stepping down.
On the other hand, I feel some statements were unfair towards Jello and his work toward the tourney, so I'd just like to discuss that now
mazza411 wrote:1. It forces registration to vote in the tournament
2. It limits the eligible voters to an even smaller group of the people active during the 2-3 weeks that stage lasted AND visits the Fun and Games forums AND comes at the right time to see the threads posted up to vote.
It's not a forum tournament if it doesn't let everyone in the forum vote. (is this rule new? I don't remember it from when I read that post at the start).
1. This tournament is about forum members (not anime characters), so it seems logical that voters would have to be registered isml forumers in order to participate. And I think the main thinking behind voting earlier on in the competition was to limit votes that just appeared out of nowhere from people who didn't actually care about the tourney.
2. Just as it's hard to vote for anime characters that you haven't watched the anime for, how can you support people when you've never interacted with them?
mazza411 wrote:"Cheat" is harsh. It's not in the rules that you can't campaign in other places, and if the people who hear your campaign also come on this forum, then I don't see anything wrong with it as long as they aren't new and only signing up to vote. "Active" is also an arbitrary term, people will be more active at certain times and not others (for example, right now there isn't any ISML voting so people might be less active, I know I'm not very active when there isn't something interesting happening)
This confused me a bit, but I don't really understand the rationale of participating in a forum tourney when the person is not even an active member of the intended forum...? Campaigning about forumers of ISML in a forum OTHER THAN ISML just seems a bit illogical.

But these are just my two cents on the topic. Truthfully, I think Kanohi said it best when...
kanohistorm wrote:you guys got to remember that is a tradition that was created for fun.
No need to be so serious about a casual "tournament" like this haha. There isn't even a real prize! since Shira took all the bishies last year ;_; *runs away to study for physics*
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by mazza411 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:44 am

My apologies, I didn't mean to say anything unfair to JLoable and appreciate the effort he puts into running this. I was just making an observation about the rules in place.
DarknessHid wrote:1. This tournament is about forum members (not anime characters), so it seems logical that voters would have to be registered isml forumers in order to participate. And I think the main thinking behind voting earlier on in the competition was to limit votes that just appeared out of nowhere from people who didn't actually care about the tourney.
2. Just as it's hard to vote for anime characters that you haven't watched the anime for, how can you support people when you've never interacted with them?
1. I didn't mean registering in the forum, obviously that is part of it, I mean "registering" by voting in the first rounds, without actually telling anyone they're signing up like that
2. But you can interact with each other outside just these isml forum edition threads, that's my point. If someone doesn't subscribe to the Fun and Games forum then they might not see the voting threads when it's up so aren't eligible to vote if they see them later on. That doesn't mean they don't know people from the results threads etc
DarknessHid wrote:This confused me a bit, but I don't really understand the rationale of participating in a forum tourney when the person is not even an active member of the intended forum...? Campaigning about forumers of ISML in a forum OTHER THAN ISML just seems a bit illogical.
Sorry, I don't think I was clear: I mean about people who are active but might not come to these threads, not people who don't come to this forum at all. Obviously it is bad for someone to make a new account just to post. I don't know what happened, but my points was just that I don't really see anything wrong with raising awareness of this on irc or on the other forum boards.

EDIT
I just read through this again, I didn't see that people were going to a completely different forum to campaign and bring in temp voters, I thought it was just in chats etc. Going to a different forum for temp voters is far, and I don't know about ban but should definitely be discouraged.
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by BugH » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:27 am

geez...
what happened here ?
JLoable91 wrote:So I'm going to end the confusion once and for all.
He's the master here and already set the result
Kuro advanced to quarter and Just eliminated but get honorable mention
that's it..

but i think the problem started here
JLoable91 wrote:After discussing/thinking a rematch would not change much. The votes are already split and one of Just's voters also got a ban.
1. Do you mind to explain further the meaning of sentence "a rematch would not change much"?
2. Is it a bit cruel to ban someone from community because of this misunderstanding ?

For me, i don't expect Jerro to rematch or something (because u already set it) but at least give some explanation about mess over here
kanohistorm wrote:you guys got to remember that is a tradition that was created for fun.
agree with kano
even the tournament looked like senior vs new members ( Jerro always said it at prolog of each thread )but i really enjoyed it
this event is a chance to find out "some information" about the others
:)

and because of that
in the name of all new members, i want to say sorry for the chaos we had made
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by JLoable91 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:06 am

Grish wrote:I don't know what Jerro's criteria are for being an active member either. Perhaps it would be best to explicitly state how this is determined, so that everyone can be certain of whether they are permitted to vote or not.
An active member = member with more than 50 official forum posts and posts regularly (not 2 times every week or with huge intervals) + they are (somewhat) active in the more social parts of the forum. (the games/chat forum, irc, chatzy...)
Grish wrote:
mazza411 wrote:I know that this is JLoable's tournament so he can make the rules that he likes, but "If you haven't vote at least once in the group stage/play-offs, you can't just start voting in the knock-out phase. So if your first+second tournament votes are in the knock-out phase, those won't count" doesn't really seem to be fair.
...
(is this rule new? I don't remember it from when I read that post at the start).
I don't recall seeing that rule before either, but perhaps I didn't read closely enough? For the sake of consistency and fairness, I think it should probably stay if it was there from the beginning (or else there might be people who could have swayed the previous matches but were banned from voting then), but if it wasn't, this really isn't the best time to add new rules.
That rule was put there before the beginning of the round of 16 as it had no effect in the earlier stages. But I probably should have put it in from the start or said that I updated the rules, sorry for that.
That rule is there to keep a consistent group of voters. Kanohi's post is exactly what this tourney is about (I highlighted the important parts in the quote below).

Look, for four years in a row this tournament has always started around September. It's quite the tradition right now. This of course led to a lot of members talking about it and me announcing it in August. Real ISML was still going on so a lot of people visited the forum. We also got questions from the newer members (Fuijiwara, tehyc, smartboyhw...) about the tourney and if they could participate. So we began the tourney with veteran, some mods and the newcomers (~32 voters). In the beginning I also allowed some members to vote (even if they couldn't) because they wanted to follow the tournament (but only after a 1 match ban). In the round of 16 I wanted to keep this consistent group and only allow new members in after a 2 match-ban. This rule is mainly there for the members who were not there from the beginning but want to stay for the remainder of the tournament. They would wait out their 2 match ban and start voting afterwards. This would also prevent members who would only vote once in the entire tournament. It isn't that bad, but if you're not considered that socially active on top of it, you're counteracting the consistency.
kanohistorm wrote:you guys got to remember that is a tradition that was created for fun. this forum doesn't get a lot of upturn in terms of new membership that posts regularly after a month or two (last year, it was a negative number). Most new membership that sign up only talk ISML results and policies/changes and rarely show up for the lighter side of things. You may say this is a forum circlejerk of sort, but in reality it mainly allows for bonds that have been created over time through chatting and games to manifest itself in the form of a tournament (that once again, is for fun). Afterall, you can't exactly vote for moe based on our username and avatars alone.

As far as voting policies goes- it's not intended for this event to be exclusive, but to reinforce that people are voting are actually invested in the social part of the forum. I would also like to raise the issue that any forum member who "aren't qualified" to vote in vote in the knockout stages, but would like to, to pm Jerro for an exemption to at least show they aren't someone who is voting for someone just because they been asked to.
Yes if you want to vote in the later stages of this tournament you may pm me. You will not be able to vote in some matches (they ones who voted earlier, can't vote for one match. Ones who didn't vote yesterday will have to wait for the quarterfinals)
BugH wrote:but i think the problem started here
JLoable91 wrote:After discussing/thinking a rematch would not change much. The votes are already split and one of Just's voters also got a ban.
1. Do you mind to explain further the meaning of sentence "a rematch would not change much"?
2. Is it a bit cruel to ban someone from community because of this misunderstanding ?
1. Basically if we do a rematch the result would stay the same: 16-16.
The votes are extremely split: veterans vote for Kuro, newcomers vote for Just. There won't be any vote swapping (except for trolls which happened A LOT in 2011-2012).
Also, one of the voters for Just got a 2 match ban, meaning he can't vote in the rematch. -> 16-15
On top of all that there are also two borderline cases voting for Just.
It's a difficult decision and I'm sorry if some members want it differently, but I want to keep the tournament going and get rid of this stressful situation. My decision was also made after discussing it with others.

2. I don't really want to talk about that (may be personal), but the ban is really not that harsh (it could've been permanent). If you want more on it, you may pm me.
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by BugH » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:19 am

JLoable91 wrote:If you want more on it, you may pm me.
Yes, i want you to sing
:p

that's enough jerro
:)
we don't want to dig it too deep
i believe your decision was a wise move and everyone here want this mess solved ASAP
make it as an experience for the future matches

please continue to next match.....
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Just » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:42 am

I don't really know what to say or what I should say as I'm at the centre of the stir... But I totally agree with Jerro's decision (I would have done exactly the same if I were in his place) and I definitely think Kuro deserves to advance. At the same time, I am extremely grateful to every one who supported me, voted for me, or even campaigned for me ><

But rules are rules~ I do recall seeing the criteria for 'active member' (no fewer than 50 posts) somewhere before, and also the 1-match ban thingy for new voters. (Not the rule for the Group Stages though… I was busy and not paying much attention… :arrowed: ) But truthfully I didn't really read up the rules word by word, and while I can't really speak for others, I guess few do, as this is really a casual fun activity within the community, and we all trust Jerro and each other within this circle. Things don't really need to be so formal… (OMG seems I used a lot of 'really'…)

Jerro's already had a hard time settling this unexpected issue 0 0 And all the time he has been working so hard to make this fun tournament happen, for all of us ><

And finally I'd like to say I really like what I experienced in this tournament >< I never expected myself to be even nominated, let alone coming this far, as I've been rather inactive the past few months. In this tournament I got to interact with a lot of you, and get to know a lot of you whom I never even talked to >< I enjoy this a lot, and really thank all of you >< Love you guys muah~
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by kanohistorm » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:46 am

you and Kuro have handled this very professionally. Props to both of you.
Now onwards to a new match!
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by JLoable91 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:48 am

To end this once and for all, here is Just's honorable mention poster:

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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Just » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:07 am

OMG that's gorgeous! Thanks so much Jerro >< A poster of myself... I've never had that before QAQ
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Fuijiwara » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:09 pm

Pooh nice one JLoable91, especially when college is probably burdening you already
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by DarknessHid » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:20 pm

@mazza411
Oh yeah, I thought you were talking about the campaigning in an entirely different forum ordeal, whoops!
slight mishap in communication xP
But I totally agree that it's fine to communicate outside of isml, i.e. IRC, Chatzy, RaidCall, etc. and in different sections of the forum since not everyone is like me and lurks in the Games area //shot

Uhhh~ idk what to say, but thanks for voting for me and sorry for any drama this match caused ;-;
And thanks to Just for being such a good sport about this (:
p.s. the number of puns in this thread are just unreal.
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Homura » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:20 pm

This poster is gorgeous!
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Just » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:44 pm

DarknessHid wrote:@mazza411
Oh yeah, I thought you were talking about the campaigning in an entirely different forum ordeal, whoops!
slight mishap in communication xP
But I totally agree that it's fine to communicate outside of isml, i.e. IRC, Chatzy, RaidCall, etc. and in different sections of the forum since not everyone is like me and lurks in the Games area //shot

Uhhh~ idk what to say, but thanks for voting for me and sorry for any drama this match caused ;-;
And thanks to Just for being such a good sport about this (:
p.s. the number of puns in this thread are just unreal.
Most of the drama was caused on my side, so you don't need to put any blame on yourself, Kuro-san 0 0

I guess I've been limiting my social circle more towards the Featured Match writeup page and also the stats stuff (blame maglor), and haven't really explored the Community beyond the competition-related areas 0 0 I shall probably have a look around and try to know more about the people around me, please guide me along and take care of me ><
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Kiwigiwi » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:51 pm

I really don't know what qualifieas an active member. Seeing as people here don't know me though, I may be considered inactive and thus ineligible to vote. Then again, I never vote in these tournaments because I think everyone here is wonderful. I don't want to make anyone feel hurt by my decision.

Also side note, I've been very busy so I'm not on chatzy. I don't do well in group chats anyways.

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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Just » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:04 pm

Kurogarasu wrote:I really don't know what qualifieas an active member. Seeing as people here don't know me though, I may be considered inactive and thus ineligible to vote. Then again, I never vote in these tournaments because I think everyone here is wonderful. I don't want to make anyone feel hurt by my decision.

Also side note, I've been very busy so I'm not on chatzy. I don't do well in group chats anyways.
I guess everybody would have their time when they're really busy, but it's OK~ I guess you can just look around in the Forums, and don't hesitate to join in any discussion you feel interested, everybody is really nice here and would warmly welcome you in their chat :D
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Homura » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:30 pm

Kurogarasu wrote:I really don't know what qualifieas an active member. Seeing as people here don't know me though, I may be considered inactive and thus ineligible to vote. Then again, I never vote in these tournaments because I think everyone here is wonderful. I don't want to make anyone feel hurt by my decision.

Also side note, I've been very busy so I'm not on chatzy. I don't do well in group chats anyways.
I'm also in endless library^^ I usually come and argue when I'm either in class break or assignment break. And I remember you because you're also a Shana fan.
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Re: ISML 2014: Forum Edition - Round of 16 (Kuro vs. Just)

Post by Magnux7 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:03 am

I love the poster!
Looks so nice! ^^

Still kinda mad knowing that if I've only had like 12-13 more posts, then my vote would have been legit and Just could have won ;L
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