RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Cross » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:17 pm

At last, K-ON won and NO SHANA year. :3
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by akumaxx » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:35 pm

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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by RegalStar » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:55 pm

KholdStare88 wrote:Just a reminder that if you only watched 4 episodes of SAO then Asuna is just a minor character. And yes, it's a bad adaptation of the LN so far. Try to watch more with an open mind instead of watching "just to see how much it really sucks"...predetermined judgement is not cool.
The SAO part of SAO is hard to adapt anyways. It has a single volume of "main story" and a ton of one-shot short side stories.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by xcrossfacekillahx » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:41 pm

RegalStar wrote:
KholdStare88 wrote:Just a reminder that if you only watched 4 episodes of SAO then Asuna is just a minor character. And yes, it's a bad adaptation of the LN so far. Try to watch more with an open mind instead of watching "just to see how much it really sucks"...predetermined judgement is not cool.
The SAO part of SAO is hard to adapt anyways. It has a single volume of "main story" and a ton of one-shot short side stories.
I don't know if I really liked their style of inserting the side stories into the main story but as long as the story is told in a good way, then I'm good with that.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Zefyris » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:51 pm

Try to watch more with an open mind instead of watching "just to see how much it really sucks"...predetermined judgement is not cool.
I never do that anyway.
It's just that lately, lot of bad adaptations from LN are popping up. Anime like c^3 are almost a complete slaughter of the original novel, or campione for example, and just by watching the first 4 episodes of SAO you can pretty much see that it's bad as well, with just how much you feel like they skip content everywhere to rush like crazy.
It doesn't change the fact that I'm not going to watch the remaining part by thinking "it's going to suck anyway". First and foremost, when I think that something is going to suck, I don't watch it in the first place. So since I said I intended to watch the remaining part of the series...
The SAO part of SAO is hard to adapt anyways. It has a single volume of "main story" and a ton of one-shot short side stories.
That's an interesting piece of info, thanks for it, since I was considering reading the novel.


EDIT: oh, and since I'm free and already thinking about it, may as well watch the continuation of the SAO series now. I don' t really feel like starting the baccano novel tonight anyway >_<.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by RegalStar » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:05 pm

The anime didn't really skip anything substantial, mostly just mechanical talk. There are some details cut here and there, but I have read the original and felt that most of what they cut don't really add a lot to the scene anyways. Exceptions exist but they're very few. Overall I think the adaptation did a decent job; it's just that the original format of what happens in SAO is impossible to adapt nicely into a regular TVA. The ALO part should leave a MUCH better impression for those who are willing to last that long (although it won't help Asuna a lot probably; I'd be glad if Lyfa can get as strong though)
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Chocola » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:44 pm

I've had this discussion before. A good adaptation doesn't see an obstacle as an excuse, but overcome it and create something better than what people expect. I do not judge anime as an "adaptation" of manga or LN, but rather as just the anime. So no matter how difficult it is to adapt something, it doesn't factor into how good that anime is. For example, some anime creates original material to help the material flow. Usually original material sucks, but I've seen some anime (Fairy Tail, Cardcaptor Sakura) that are excellent at using them. Props to those anime.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Zefyris » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:17 pm

Hoh, somehow, it's developing into an interesting discussion? -Although KholdStare seems to already have it before-

The fact that an anime cannot adapt everything is.. Natural I think. From the start, it's not like it can be compared when it comes to the budget involved to publish a new book or to adapt it into a few anime episode. So cutting is fine by me, as long as they do not cut it stupidly (like, keeping things that doesn't matter like an ecchi scene in something where the ecchi isn't the main goal, yet destroying a part of the plot by cutting it, or destroying an important character on the other hand...), and don't cut it so much that it feels like it's rushed all along (worse thing coming to mind isn't from a book but a visual novel, it's that movie unlimited blades works).
I admit that there are also things that cannot be easily, or even realistically be adapted.
On the other hand, if a company doesn't have nearly enough budget or skills to make even an average adaptation of a said book, then that company shouldn't adapt it in the first place. Not knowing when to give up and making a mess of something that I like is a behavior that tend to annoy me quite a bit. If you adapt something you should respect it as well, not doing it just for money. Basically, if you feel like what you're going to do as an adaptation will just be a slap in the face of the original work, just don't do it...
There's a point when I cannot just excuse it anymore.
SAO doesn't "feel" that way, but since I only watched the anime (ah, watched up to the 10th before coming back posting), I can't really judge. It really feels rushed from time to time, though, but it's still a pleasant watch (I still don't get how Asuna can have twice the number of vote of saber with just those 10 episodes, though. Not that I especially like Saber, but how many of the nova girls can do that?).

But what I dislike the most are the adaptations where things which didn't need to get changed still were. Like C^3. They changed so much things for no reasons, like how things and some characters are like, where the action takes place, who does what, when things happen and in which order... And in the end, it's a garbage full of holes plot-wise. Because they only changed things partially, yet for example, characters still refers to events the way they happened in the LN. And everything is so flashy and exaggerated that it's simply painful to watch after reading the novel. They used as much as 5 full episodes to adapt around 300 pages, yet, they do that kind of terrible work...
I heard that some peoples liked it, though. (I bet they would cry if they read the original work and would never say that again :x).
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Fate » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:38 pm

Oh man, Mio won another necklace.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by RegalStar » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:47 pm

The male part of the pairs helped too. Saber and Kirigitsu don't make the best team to begin with, and then for some reason, instead of viewing the two pairs as "male protagonist - female protagonist", a lot of people viewed it as a comparison between shipping pairing, with predictable results.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Chocola » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:03 pm

@Zefyris: I'm actually in the same position as you are. I don't know anything about the SAO novel (nor do I care to know more about it, because it will influence my judgement of the anime). I just know that the anime is somewhat lacking. Its discontinuity/rushed feeling is annoying, and I don't really care why, just that it is. I'm probably appearing as overly critical but SAO is actually one of my favorite anime this season, simply because it's entertaining. The fact that the discontinuities leave me wanting to know more about the story is actually good, because that means I care enough about it to think that way. Once again, I don't really care if anime cannot adapt everything...mainly because I don't know what "everything" is in the first place. :) I only care if the anime is good, not how much it differs from the original.

Another thing is that people watch anime for different things. For example, some may not care much about how good the plot of C^3 is as long as it has a moe character or their favorite seiyuu in it. I had to suffer through Zero no Tsukaima: Princess no Rondo (season 3) which is almost the same thing. They introduced one small plot element which is Tiffania, and then the rest of the season is ecchi fanservice and back and forth stuff that goes nowhere. So in this case, nothing got changed from the novel, but more like they didn't even attempt to adapt much of the novel and just juice the series for more money. This much is obvious regardless if you know the LN or not.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Ash Falls Town » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:46 am

Oh off topic discussion on adapting anime.
Well I'm just going to say that a lot of my favorite anime I like BECAUSE they are "bad" adaptions - Neuro/Tsubasa Chronicle/DNAngel/Harutoki and to a lesser extent La Corda d'Oro and Natsume Yuujinchou all have changes that I really liked.

Anyway on Kirito+Asuna I had to vote for them because of "romantic and plastic" I don't know why but that line really got me.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Tenshiholic » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:56 am

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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Bastion » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:46 am

Without delving into novels, I can speak to the truth of some anime doing a fail job of adaption. Seikon no Blacksmith is a good story in the manga, serious things mixed with fluffy moments nicely. The anime didn't even do it justice, skipping between plotlines to create a 'moe' atmosphere and changing the entire story before it actually got anywhere, leading to people dropping it/not watching it in the first place.

On the other side, sometimes an anime adaption can actually help the source material. The anime of MAR goes into much more depth as 'filler', but it helps to fill in the story rather than detract from it. The adaptation of Dragonaut is similar, the manga seems like it was stopped short and the anime filled in the rest of the story.

I guess sometimes it helps and sometimes it hurts. If the animators aren't sure of how many episodes they're going to get (no foreknowledge of getting a second season for example) they may try to rush to include important parts of the story, while leaving other things behind.
Maybe if another adaption is done, things will be timed better. I suppose similar to how things ended up happening with FullMetal Alchemist.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Roo-loves-Elsie » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:59 am

lol i never expect mio will win this...
and the result between kirito x asuna and kiritsugu x saber
just meh...

but i think if that was shirou x saber the result would be different imo
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Zefyris » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:10 am

The male part of the pairs helped too. Saber and Kirigitsu don't make the best team to begin with, and then for some reason, instead of viewing the two pairs as "male protagonist - female protagonist", a lot of people viewed it as a comparison between shipping pairing, with predictable results.
I never really thought of voting that way actually when I was voting for a pair, I was simply adding the "value" that each of the 2 characters had in my opinion, and voting for the sides which had a higher "score". I was under the impression that in ISML, male characters have very little influence on the matches' overall result. Hence that Kirito couldn't possibly be the origin of such overwhelming victory.
I see, voting according to shipping pairing... However, is there really like... more than half of the 10k voters who did such a thing?
Also, I saw the 11th episode of SAO yesterday(it was probably the best episode since the start BTW. It really felt like a good anime episode, rather than a rushed adaptation of something else). I believe that this episode still wasn't haired when the match took place, so considering that the whole episode strengthened the Kirito/Asuna relationship, I wonder what kind of result that match would have now >_<".


@KholdStare
I see, that's an interesting point of view- To not read the original material in order to not be influenced in your judgment. I still find interesting to read the original material afterward if I found the anime interesting enough, though. The other way around often ends in a huge disappointment since at least 90% of the time the adaptation isn't as good as the original material (it being a LN, a novel, a manga or a visual novel). However, seeing the adaptation first can also leads you to completely ignore a good book because of how bad that adaptation was. I spoke of C^3 before; if i watched the anime first, most probably, I wouldn't have been that angry about how bad it was, however... I would never have bought the LN in order to read it, either. Because even without reading the LN, I would definitely have found the anime to be seriously lacking, but I would have no way to know that it was merely bad changes made in its adaptation rather than plot holes in its LN version.
I liked the c^3 LN (well, I have yet to even reach half of the tomes since I'll have to buy the remaining part of it, but I like what I already read), even if I was angry afterward about the adaption. In the end, choosing this order paid off for me that time.
just know that the anime is somewhat lacking. Its discontinuity/rushed feeling is annoying, and I don't really care why, just that it is.
Agreed, because with the way those episodes were handled, you can never forget that it's an adaptation (except for that 11th episode and the first one, maybe), and a rushed one, even if you never read the original. All those discontinuities reminds you about it again before you can get that fact out of your mind.
The fact that the discontinuities leave me wanting to know more about the story is actually good, because that means I care enough about it to think that way.
True. That's why I don't dislike this kind of adaptation as much as I dislike the kind that change randomly a lot of things like C^3. At least in SAO the anime tell you all the time that "there is more to the original work than what the anime shows". Whereas there is no way to see through all those stupid changes in C^3 besides reading the novel. Same goes with a lot of manga adaptation which gives a lot of additional fanservice without caring about the original plot. One that hurt a lot was those two Negima series, for example...
Neuro/Tsubasa Chronicle/DNAngel/Harutoki and to a lesser extent La Corda d'Oro and Natsume Yuujinchou all have changes that I really liked
Sometimes adaptation can indeed be more pleasant than the original due too some changes. I heard for example several times that the LN of IS is far worse than the anime in quality. Not that I found IS to be a good anime, mind you, far from it, but several peoples told me that the LN was actually far worse.
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Chocola » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:39 pm

It's an interesting point that a bad adaptation can deter you from reading the original material. I guess that can be said if the anime is really that bad that it can somehow hurt LN sales. I was aiming for how anime can be good even if it doesn't follow the original material exactly though. I would hope people do some research before ditching the original material. For example, while I was ripping apart ZnT3 to pieces, lots of people tell me to just stop watching the anime and read the damn LN, because it's much better than the adaptation. While I don't like it when people tell me that, it does tell me that at least the original material is much better than the current faildaptation.

And yeah I don't mind reading through the LN/manga after watching the anime. I did it to CCS and it was...interesting. :)
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by exec » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:05 am

welp, i was kinda disappointed with the results, i mean i voted for Yuki, but then i looked closer at the Mio's poster... and then i was ok with the results :onion81:
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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Momento10 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:39 am

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Re: RESULTS: 2012 Topaz 8

Post by Team Rocket Elite » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:27 am

Congrats on winning the Topaz Necklace, Akiyama Mio! Poor Shana will have to go without a necklace this year. She may have had a sizable advantage but Mio did really in staying close enough to Shana to take the necklace. 169 is what made the difference. I guess this year really highlighted the problems with Kugimiya Rie having so many strong characters. Shana and Taiga sabotaged each other for 3 periods and when Shana finally got away from Taiga, she didn't have the SDO to get the job done anymore. Aria showing up in Topaz probably didn't help either. Hanazawa Kana can get away with this because Kanade is strong enough to win despite split votes and take an early necklace. Everyone else did badly relative to Shana and Mio but Yui did end up doing quite well relative to Yuki. This might have been because Yui's SDO was also pretty good. Sena and Kobato split vote each other to death and unsurprisingly Aria gets hammered by Shana's presence to take last place.

Kyouko looks stronger after Season 2. However, she still trails a fair bit behind Index.

Toujou Koneko really surprised me with her performance. I didn't think she would win, let alone so easily. I only watched Highschool DxD not to long ago so it's cool to see Koneko do well.

I was looking forward to seeing how well Yuuhi was doing after so many years since Kugimiya Rie characters tend to have strong staying power. It's too bad she got paired with Aria making her strength completely unreadable. Maybe I'll get a better read the next time she shows up.

The battle for the Topaz Earrings was Inori vs Tomoyo as I thought it would be and Inori came out on top. Congrats to Inori!

I generally don't give newcomers much credit before their first match. I thought I was being generous when I pegged Asuna and Kirito as being only a bit weaker than Saber and Kiritsugu. Reaching Saber's level is no small feat afterall. I was completely wrong. Asuna and Kirito completely demolish their opponents. At face value, it's a performance that means Tachibana Kanade would have trouble hitting 40%. I don't know if this is something Asuna could do in a non-exhibition match but if it is we may have out ISML 2013 Champion already.

For those interested, here are my character rankings from before Topaz 1 and after Topaz 7:

Before Topaz 1:
Character Ranking before Topaz 1Show
Aisaka Taiga - 63.25
Nakano Azusa - 58.58
Misaka Mikoto - 57.38
Suzumiya Haruhi - 57.02
Shana - 56.9
Nagato Yuki - 56.1
Akiyama Mio - 55.44
Saber - 54.57
Katsura Hinagiku - 48.55
Sengoku Nadeko - 47.49
Hirasawa Yui - 47.39
Senjōgahara Hitagi - 46.02
Oshino Shinobu - 45.19
Sakagami Tomoyo - 45.06
Fujibayashi Kyō - 43.8
Tōsaka Rin - 43.53
Illyasviel von Einzbern - 43.4
Last Order - 43.02
Louise Vallière - 42.6
Furukawa Nagisa - 41.77
C.C. - 41.53
Asahina Mikuru - 41.25
Hiiragi Kagami - 41.23
Izumi Konata - 41.08
Ikaros - 40.84
Konjiki no Yami - 40.03
Sanzen'in Nagi - 39.53
Nymph - 39.39
Kotobuki Tsumugi - 39.36
Ichinose Kotomi - 38.52
Index L. Prohibitorum - 38.22
Hirasawa Ui - 38.08
Holo - 37.98
Shirai Kuroko - 36.11
Shiina Mafuyu - 35.66
Hecate - 33.3

Tachibana Kanade - 72.73
Eucliwood Hellscythe - 66.37
Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko) - 54.43
Yui - 52.89
Nakamura Yuri - 50.89
Hasegawa Kobato - 47.69
Kōsaka Kirino - 47.45
Kashiwazaki Sena - 47.26
Yuzuriha Inori - 44.29
Charlotte Dunois - 43.58
Kanzaki H. Aria - 42.34
Victorique de Blois - 41.49
Kuroi Mato - 40.64
Tōwa Erio - 40.49
Mikazuki Yozora - 39.02
Makise Kurisu - 38.82
Elucia de Lute Ima - 38.8
Haruna - 38.6
Aragaki Ayase - 38.04
Kirishima Shōko - 37.81
Iwasawa Masami - 37.52
Konoe Subaru - 37.01
Haqua du Lot Herminium - 36.6
Himeji Mizuki - 36.49
Akemi Homura - 36.34
Irisviel von Einzbern - 35.6
Mine Riko - 35.11
Kasugano Sora - 35.08
Shiomiya Shiori - 35.03
Nakagawa Kanon - 34.85
Suzutsuki Kanade - 34.34
Honma Meiko - 34.27
Fear Kubrick - 33.99
Shimada Minami - 32.61
Sakura Kyōko - 31.97
Gasai Yuno - 29.49
After Topaz 7:
Character Ranking after Topaz 7Show
Aisaka Taiga - 65
Nakano Azusa - 58.98
Misaka Mikoto - 58.1
Akiyama Mio - 56.77
Shana - 55.53
Nagato Yuki - 54.86
Suzumiya Haruhi - 54.57
Saber - 54.51
Katsura Hinagiku - 49.82
Senjōgahara Hitagi - 46.59
Sengoku Nadeko - 46.16
Hirasawa Yui - 45.91
Oshino Shinobu - 45.44
Sakagami Tomoyo - 44.61

Fujibayashi Kyō - 44.09
Furukawa Nagisa - 43.29
Last Order - 43.22
Illyasviel von Einzbern - 43.13
Louise Vallière - 43.08
Tōsaka Rin - 42.8
Konjiki no Yami - 42.52
C.C. - 41.79
Hiiragi Kagami - 41.69
Izumi Konata - 41.11
Asahina Mikuru - 40.89
Ikaros - 40.53
Nymph - 39.62
Kotobuki Tsumugi - 39.31
Index L. Prohibitorum - 38.57
Sanzen'in Nagi - 38.55
Ichinose Kotomi - 37.56
Holo - 37.55
Shirai Kuroko - 36.9
Hirasawa Ui - 36.86
Shiina Mafuyu - 36.2
Hecate - 33.98

Tachibana Kanade - 72.89
Eucliwood Hellscythe - 65.53
Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko) - 56.22
Yui - 51.65
Nakamura Yuri - 50.91
Kashiwazaki Sena - 48.15
Kōsaka Kirino - 48.11
Hasegawa Kobato - 47.18
Charlotte Dunois - 44.45
Yuzuriha Inori - 43.67
Kanzaki H. Aria - 42.28
Tōwa Erio - 40.5
Kuroi Mato - 40.35
Victorique de Blois - 40.34

Makise Kurisu - 40.15
Mikazuki Yozora - 40.03
Haruna - 38.67

Aragaki Ayase - 38.42
Iwasawa Masami - 37.66
Kirishima Shōko - 37.37
Haqua du Lot Herminium - 37.14
Konoe Subaru - 36.98
Elucia de Lute Ima - 36.9
Kasugano Sora - 36.49
Akemi Homura - 36.01
Himeji Mizuki - 35.8
Irisviel von Einzbern - 35.75
Mine Riko - 35.31
Honma Meiko - 35.11
Shiomiya Shiori - 34.78
Nakagawa Kanon - 34.46
Suzutsuki Kanade - 33.93
Fear Kubrick - 33.53
Sakura Kyōko - 31.36
Shimada Minami - 31.16
Gasai Yuno - 30.03

Characters in bold made the playoffs.

I haven't seen it yet but Yami seemed to have gotten a decent sized boost from the To LOVE-Ru Darkness OVA that came out after Emerald. She shot up quite a bit right from the start of Topaz. By a fair bit, she was the one that grew the most across Topaz. The other character that improved a lot was Kasugano Sora. She shot up another 4 place on top on what she already did at the end of Emerald. It's really too bad she didn't fight any opponents where her new found strength would help her. With a more normal schedule she could have gotten 3 or 4 more wins. Other than those two, no one really tried to go above and beyond their usual level. Nagisa, Kurisu and Kuroneko looked a bit better but nothing huge. I guess with the exception of Kuroneko, none of this really matters since they are done for the year.

In terms of crashes, Elsie looks like she was hit hardest. She shouldn't really be struggling with Riko and Mizuki but I guess she still won in the end. Minami didn't look to good in Topaz but I guess she's already near the bottom anyways. Last year Haruhi crashed pretty badly in the playoffs and a lackluster Topaz may be a sign of a repeat. Yuki doesn't look too good either. They will need to step up their game if they want to be competitive this year.

I guess you could call it a limitation on my ranking system but Taiga and Azusa still sit on top of Stella despite getting thrashed in Topaz 7. Taking into account all the matches in Topaz, those two still look the best. I guess Azusa isn't really that much higher than Mikoto in my rankings, though. Kanade tops Nova but I doubt many people expected differently.

When I was talking about characters that improved across Topaz, I didn't include Shana and Mikoto. Their boosts are another limitation in my stats system. Shana and Mikoto massively boosted for just Topaz 7 which doesn't give my stats enough time to adjust to the change. Normally, I need another match or two to confirm it's a permanent boost and not a one time spike. The reason I believe these spikes are real is because this is a repeat of last year. In 2011 Diamond 7, Shana and Mikoto both spiked up in strength. In the playoffs, Shana would go on to knock off Kanade while Mikoto won. Even if it isn't reflected in my stats, I think both Shana and Mikoto will give Kanade a run for her money when they cross paths.
A miracle that you believe in when you know it won't happen......... is hope.
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