RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Chocola » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:51 am

If you guys haven't seen yet:

http://kholdstare.ryantoddrogers.com/IS ... p_m7-7.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by akumaxx » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:27 am

Best news: Sora out of 0-49 hell; Kanade stopped Shana, one of the most hardcores.
Good news: Yuri won; Misaka succeeded.
Bad news: Azusa must be having a bad day; Holo failed.
Neutral: Mugi vs Yui, Mafuyu vs Charlotte, either side satisfies.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Eater-of-All » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:28 am

KholdStare88 wrote:If you guys haven't seen yet:

http://kholdstare.ryantoddrogers.com/IS ... p_m7-7.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And everyone realizes that in reality, China is their ally....
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Miku » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:29 am

Wow, epic results. Finally Euclwood still lost to Mio breaking so many people's hopes. But I am the one who appreciate Mio's win!
Yuki's win over Azusa is unexpected and certainly that's awesome!
Shana didn't look as well as I expected. The victim list of Kanade counted once again.lol
KholdStare88 wrote:If you guys haven't seen yet:

http://kholdstare.ryantoddrogers.com/IS ... p_m7-7.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wow, I didn't expect it was a world wide sweeped match! The strongest opponent Kanade ever met still got swept? :o
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Eater-of-All wrote:
KholdStare88 wrote:If you guys haven't seen yet:

http://kholdstare.ryantoddrogers.com/IS ... p_m7-7.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And everyone realizes that in reality, China is their ally....
That was no longer a secret long time ago.lol
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Jack_Rav » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:45 am

Yuki, Kanade and Mikoto won. Eucliwood lost too, making it more possible that Yuki can retain the necklace. :D Great results.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Dusk252 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:51 am

Miku wrote:Wow, epic results. Finally Euclwood still lost to Mio breaking so many people's hopes. But I am the one who appreciate Mio's win!
Yuki's win over Azusa is unexpected and certainly that's awesome!
Agreed^^
Also, Fate won against Holo! I can say that I'm happy with the results today.

I can't say that Kanade's region sweep was unexpected. Even agaisnt Shana. But well, as long as it's against Shana, I'm happy^^ (Though if she did this to Shana, everyone else is pretty much doomed...)

Now I'm just hoping Yuki will keep the Amethyst necklace.
V_Anon wrote:How could Eucliwood Hellscythe get SDO for losing? Are there rules I don't know about?
If her past opponents (whom she defeated), win their matches, her SDO goes up.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Sedon » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:18 am

Yuki and Taiga won *yay!*.. But Shana lost to Kanade :(

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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by HibariKyoya » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:28 am

Kyou lost... Except for that, it was a great round...
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by maglor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:39 am

KholdStare88 wrote:
Cassiopeia wrote:What can I say.. Kanade is new Shana.
Except Kanade wins tournaments.
Which tournaments have Kanade won?
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by xcrossfacekillahx » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:06 am

http://kholdstare.ryantoddrogers.com/IS ... p_m7-4.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Zorya » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:17 am

maglor wrote:
Zorya wrote:worst schedule ever.
it makes SDO in a period ridiculous.
necklace arena just looks like a joke.
Care to suggest better schedule? What changes can you propose so the necklace arena looks better? Please present some concrete plans with details.
I had suggested last year.

characters being linked in a single period is a bad idea, especially those 6 characters with hinagiku.
the fail seeding results of some characters made the SDO distribution even worse.
it's easily to randomize the order of 7 same type match sets(for example, Tier1 vs Tier2 in seven periods) without affecting other sets.
there's no reason the schedule must be arranged following certain pattern except someone will doubt there are intentional changes of schedule by staff. (uploading zip files of full and period schedules with passwords will simply resolve these suspicions)
the schedule of 2011 aquamarine REALLY followed a pattern, but from Topaz 4 or 5 it changed a bit. some matches were adjusted.
i don't know when these changes happened.if they were after the aquamarine, that only make things looks more...
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Team Rocket Elite » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:44 am

"Fail seeding" is hard to fix. Especially since characters change in strength over time. Like last year Azusa was Tier 3. Until K-On Season 2 started, she acted like a Tier 3. After K-On Season, she blasted her way to almost the top of Tier 1. This year, Mikuru looked outright terrible in the seeding matches. She got beaten by Kasugano Sora and Nymph on the first day. On the third, she lost to Laura Bodewig and Haruna. How are you supposed to look at those matches and come to the conclusion that Mikuru should be Tier 4 and not Tier 7? This is already after throwing out the obviously bad Seeding Day 2 result where Mikuru was paired with Haruhi.

The schedule in Topaz and Amethyst also follow a pattern. The pattern in Aquamarine is just a special case of the patterns used in Topaz and Amethyst that makes it easier to notice the pattern.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by lihuazou » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:24 am

Yes,"Fail seeding" is hard to fix.But as the opponent's opponents too few in number,led SDO to a larger float

Indeed schedule still follow a pattern, but can not be seen before the topaz 5.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by maglor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:03 am

Zorya wrote:
maglor wrote:
Zorya wrote:worst schedule ever.
it makes SDO in a period ridiculous.
necklace arena just looks like a joke.
Care to suggest better schedule? What changes can you propose so the necklace arena looks better? Please present some concrete plans with details.
I had suggested last year.

characters being linked in a single period is a bad idea, especially those 6 characters with hinagiku.
the fail seeding results of some characters made the SDO distribution even worse.
it's easily to randomize the order of 7 same type match sets(for example, Tier1 vs Tier2 in seven periods) without affecting other sets.
there's no reason the schedule must be arranged following certain pattern except someone will doubt there are intentional changes of schedule by staff. (uploading zip files of full and period schedules with passwords will simply resolve these suspicions)
the schedule of 2011 aquamarine REALLY followed a pattern, but from Topaz 4 or 5 it changed a bit. some matches were adjusted.
i don't know when these changes happened.if they were after the aquamarine, that only make things looks more...
Interesting. Please present to us the full schedule for all 50 character and 49 matches as you think they should have been.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Zorya » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:19 am

maglor wrote: Interesting. Please present to us the full schedule for all 50 character and 49 matches as you think they should have been.
put all Tier1 vs Tier2 matches together(7 matches in a same day as a unit), randomize the order and put them back to period 1-7
repeat this procedure to all 21 groups of "Tier A VS Tier B" matches and "Inside Tier" matches

the order of the matches in same period does not matter. you can arrange them as your like.

most of the resulting schedule will be better than current one.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Umi » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:50 pm

Bad: Nymph, Horo, Sora won. D:
Good: Yuki - For a moment, I thought I misread the result.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Athalon » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:03 pm

Good News: Yay Yuki is going to finals...again YAYYYY
Bad news: Shana lost o noes....
Worse news: Laura and Shiina lost....again
Worst news:
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WTF?!>!>!>!>!>!>!"!?!?!?!?!? THAT INCEST WON, WTF IS WRONG WITH THIS PLACE WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!? *pukes blood* My wish, my hope, all is lost, AAARRRGHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Worst results ever >_>
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by Momo » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:38 pm

Team Rocket Elite wrote:This isn't exactly related to the schedule, but I wonder if the Necklace Showdown would work better if it was just winner take all instead of being weighed by the SDO of the period. SDO would still be used a the tiebreaker to determine which characters with 6-1 period records make the showdown. It would also have the benefit of having a simpler and easier to understand scoring system in the necklace period. Also I think people would rage less over the results since they are more willing to accept a loss by pure vote count than a loss due to how score is calculated (see Kanade in Aquamarine).
If that's implemented now (as opposed to next year), I smell the possibility of revival of rage-following-Aquamarine-necklace..
That said, I think this has merits, although it would epically suck for girls who overcame a horribly difficult schedule to 7-0 but lose by votes to someone who had a real easy schedule...

@the things Zorya's talking about: I don't really understand it, all that stuff is too complicated for me and flies over my head, but I agree re: the linked chars in one period. Although it's good for predicting matches in Round 7 xD

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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by maglor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:16 pm

Zorya wrote:
maglor wrote: Interesting. Please present to us the full schedule for all 50 character and 49 matches as you think they should have been.
put all Tier1 vs Tier2 matches together(7 matches in a same day as a unit), randomize the order and put them back to period 1-7
repeat this procedure to all 21 groups of "Tier A VS Tier B" matches and "Inside Tier" matches

the order of the matches in same period does not matter. you can arrange them as your like.

most of the resulting schedule will be better than current one.
1. How would this address the problem of, for example, Tier 4 level contestant being misplaced into Tier 6? Someone will benefit from meeting this contestant.
2. How can you handle that we have 7 contestants per tier? How can you make sure that a Wild card contestant don't enter 2 matches in a day? In fact, what control do you have in making sure each contestant appears only once in each match day? Should we abandon it?
3. How will you address the problem of loops? Loops are when Contestant A faced B and C and D in a necklace period, and B also faces C or D within same necklace period. The problem with this is that it automatically caps SDO A can gain since B and C cannot both win when they face each other. Furthermore, it can arbitrarily increase or lower the True SDO strength since at least 1 of B or C has to win when they face each other, but B, C, and D all might be Tier 7 material. Conversely, B,C,D all might be Tier 2 material yet contestant A will lose 3 SDO because B faces C or D thus instead of both B and (C or D) getting 6 wins, contributing 18 SDO points, one will be contributing only 15 SDO due to B vs (C or D) match. How does your plan address this problem?
4. What is your standard of better? Is it deliberately making all Tier 1 end up with as close SDO as possible? Is it making sure that everyone meets same overall quality of opponent as possible? ( Note : 2010 schedule was optimized for this, but it failed to address the loop problem listed above. We are aware of tweaks that can achieve this goal while minimizing the loop problem listed above. This format was deliberately not adopted for this year in order to MAXIMIZE the SDO variance ) It would help greatly if you can present objective definition backed by numerical explanations as to why your plan is better than the current plan.
5. Having some detectable pattern(s) ensures that people will know that schedules are not being altered on fly to give certain characters advantage. 2011 Topaz and Amethyst did throw a little curve ball at that pattern, but I bet some people can point out how the patterns were maintained in general. If we do pure random as you suggest, how will you defend yourself against charge of schedule tempering? If you reveal the entire schedule from the beginning, that eliminates all uncertainty. The current format guarantees some uncertainty will exist even if you fully understand the method used to generate the schedule. The uncertainty is needed so 'tactical' voters and perhaps even some 'not well intended groups' cannot plan ahead for more than 72 hours in order to pool their resources and do things to nudge the results in their favor. Would it be wise to expose the schedule to this potential threat by revealing the entire schedule? If you want to know if something like this did happen, please take a look at how certain characters rose and fell in strength during 2008 and 2009. You will definitely see that certain group was deliberately propping up certain characters while hurting others. In 2008, luckily, we knew who these voters were, they made no secret that they liked certain characters thus were trying their best to support them, and we even knew some of their internet IDs, so everyone had good laugh about it. In 2009, and perhaps 2010, I will leave it up to you to research what might have happened. Any degree of uncertainty helps in deterring large group coordinating their efforts.
6. You mentioned "uploading zip files of full and period schedules with passwords will simply resolve these suspicions" . This can't work since in end it will be within group called working staff and observers, neither of which around 99% of voters bother to communicate with. If ISML is much smaller, say 1/10 of current level which is approximately the size of recent J-Saimoe, this method can work. We are too big thus need to make sure anyone with some time can find reasons to trust the staff without directly communicating with anyone else. There is a compromise way of not having discernable pattern while easing the fear of schedule tempering. Korea Best Moe staffs have debated a method called 'reveal next 2' method, where in addition to knowing the immediate match group ( That would be Amethyst 8 for today ), the subsequent match group ( Sapphire 1 ) is revealed, showing that at least the current voting results cannot have been used in determining the schedule of the following match. This again has pros and cons. I will leave it up to you to figure them out.
7. Finally, you haven't touched upon the biggest problem of them all, one that is very hard to resolve with limited number of seeding match. That is how in the world will you seed the 50 characters based on prelim and the 3 seeding matches? If you can suggest a way to do this better than current or better than some recent proposal ( I have already typed up the main idea for this proposal which may or may not be accepted, but at least multiple people can show you the time stamp of the post to verify that I did already made the proposal. That is, if you can trust them), I will be singing your praise for at least a week even if you ignore all 6 questions above. Please keep in mind that we can't have prelim+seeding period to be more than 6 week, which was the amount of real time ISML spent on them this year. ( http://www.internationalsaimoe.com/rules.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). Some important questions are, (1) how will you seed characters when you have circular situation of A>B , B> C, C>A . (2) Which numerical quantity be given priority? (3) How can we use results from last year's exhibition, J-Saimoe, Korea Best Moe, and Korea Super Best Moe? (4) Who should be given the wild card slot? and other questions.
Last edited by maglor on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RESULTS: 2011 Amethyst 7

Post by maglor » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:24 pm

Momokutenshi wrote:
Team Rocket Elite wrote:This isn't exactly related to the schedule, but I wonder if the Necklace Showdown would work better if it was just winner take all instead of being weighed by the SDO of the period. SDO would still be used a the tiebreaker to determine which characters with 6-1 period records make the showdown. It would also have the benefit of having a simpler and easier to understand scoring system in the necklace period. Also I think people would rage less over the results since they are more willing to accept a loss by pure vote count than a loss due to how score is calculated (see Kanade in Aquamarine).
If that's implemented now (as opposed to next year), I smell the possibility of revival of rage-following-Aquamarine-necklace..
That said, I think this has merits, although it would epically suck for girls who overcame a horribly difficult schedule to 7-0 but lose by votes to someone who had a real easy schedule...

@the things Zorya's talking about: I don't really understand it, all that stuff is too complicated for me and flies over my head, but I agree re: the linked chars in one period. Although it's good for predicting matches in Round 7 xD
I will simply say, that by having linked char pattern, it is now possible for a 7-0 contestant to have SDO as high as 7 * 6 * 3 = 126 as it now is possible for all 7 of your opponent to go 6-1. If you don't have the link, the maximum possible SDO will be lower. Of course this means that a 7-0 contestant can have SDO of 0 as well, but that would either mean total misplacement of ALL 7 opponent's tier , or extremely persistent large group hell-bent upon pumping up SDO for certain character. I seriously doubt if any group can achieve this, because they have to keep up their effort for almost 3 weeks. It is almost impossible to keep thousands of people on same trivial objective for more than a day. 2008 group worked because their number were less and even they had on and off days.
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