Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

mitsuho
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by mitsuho » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:51 pm

maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
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maglor
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by maglor » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:57 pm

mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
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mitsuho
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by mitsuho » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:06 pm

maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by maglor » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:21 pm

mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
I'm sorry if you don't trust us. We do not believe in disproportionate responses to every unethical violations we find. To our best ability, we did what we believe to be justifiable. Multiple people are involved in vote checking, and we make sure there are sufficient checks and balances to not let a single person's bias influence the outcome. The current result is what we believe to be closest we can come to the combined will of thousands of people who bothered to participate in voting today, given our puny resources and limitations set by privacy rules in some parts of the world. We would be happy to know of better ways to ascertain the honesty of each votes. We cannot ban characters as I have seen what happened to other events that banned characters for bad behaviors of some of the supporters: It lead to downward spiral of people trying to ban more characters in any way possible.I am sorry that our best is not up to your standard, but we simply can't overrule the desire of thousands of other people for you.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by HasbeenaHibiki » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:36 pm

exec wrote:
Constitution of the International Saimoe League wrote:Article I. Identification, Mission, and Definition
Section 2. The primary mission of ISML includes the following:
2. Discovering which anime character is the most moe as decided by majority rule,
4. Planning and executing events responsibly, ethically, and efficiently.

Article IV. Voter Policies and Procedures
Section 3. Each voter is limited to one (1) vote per match per round. A voter may not vote on behalf of another person.
It clearly goes against the constitution. Especially the voter can't vote on behalf of other voter part, which bribing clearly violates, you can't even bullshit your way out of this. Also it's not majority rule if one person puppeteers majority. And it's unethical.
:Victorique:
Also it's ISML staff obligation to enforce the rules not voters. Saying things like "What do you want us to do about it?" is not productive. If you can't enforce your own rules means there are some problems either with the rule or you might as well not do anything and just wait when ISML rots away as more people will learn about how fucked up it is.
I would suggest rematch if this is going to be proven not worth even trying to prove legitimacy of the results. But that's just my suggestion. Also idk how legit is his claim, so take it with a grain of salt, please.
I agree with your suggestion or a rematch between Mashiro/Rin at the very least if it is worthy to prove legitimacy.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by Loveisthebest » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:52 pm

maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
I'm sorry if you don't trust us. We do not believe in disproportionate responses to every unethical violations we find. To our best ability, we did what we believe to be justifiable. Multiple people are involved in vote checking, and we make sure there are sufficient checks and balances to not let a single person's bias influence the outcome. The current result is what we believe to be closest we can come to the combined will of thousands of people who bothered to participate in voting today, given our puny resources and limitations set by privacy rules in some parts of the world. We would be happy to know of better ways to ascertain the honesty of each votes. We cannot ban characters as I have seen what happened to other events that banned characters for bad behaviors of some of the supporters: It lead to downward spiral of people trying to ban more characters in any way possible.I am sorry that our best is not up to your standard, but we simply can't overrule the desire of thousands of other people for you.
How about if we confirm that this man is a fan of tousaka rin , and he do have attract for other people to vote for money. Not only once in the hupu BBS, but multiple times ,we can provide the following evidence. Moreover, we figured that this guy should probably the same guy who is in charging rin's fans club in QQ basically voting for isml (having the same id, profile picture, age as well as the address),This kind of behavior does not meet the rules, please check.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by maglor » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:46 pm

Loveisthebest wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
I'm sorry if you don't trust us. We do not believe in disproportionate responses to every unethical violations we find. To our best ability, we did what we believe to be justifiable. Multiple people are involved in vote checking, and we make sure there are sufficient checks and balances to not let a single person's bias influence the outcome. The current result is what we believe to be closest we can come to the combined will of thousands of people who bothered to participate in voting today, given our puny resources and limitations set by privacy rules in some parts of the world. We would be happy to know of better ways to ascertain the honesty of each votes. We cannot ban characters as I have seen what happened to other events that banned characters for bad behaviors of some of the supporters: It lead to downward spiral of people trying to ban more characters in any way possible.I am sorry that our best is not up to your standard, but we simply can't overrule the desire of thousands of other people for you.
How about if we confirm that this man is a fan of tousaka rin , and he do have attract for other people to vote for money. Not only once in the hupu BBS, but multiple times ,we can provide the following evidence. Moreover, we figured that this guy should probably the same guy who is in charging rin's fans club in QQ basically voting for isml (having the same id, profile picture, age as well as the address),This kind of behavior does not meet the rules, please check.
While this gives us more confidence in great number of Rin votes we removed, it does not shake our confidence about votes we did count.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by Loveisthebest » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:46 pm

But the behavior of rin's fans is against the law. A thief who stole the money violated the law. You did not take him to the police station, but let him pay the money and let him go. Other fans will also buy votes where we don't know, and you can't get rid of these votes.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by Loveisthebest » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:49 pm

maglor wrote:
Loveisthebest wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
I'm sorry if you don't trust us. We do not believe in disproportionate responses to every unethical violations we find. To our best ability, we did what we believe to be justifiable. Multiple people are involved in vote checking, and we make sure there are sufficient checks and balances to not let a single person's bias influence the outcome. The current result is what we believe to be closest we can come to the combined will of thousands of people who bothered to participate in voting today, given our puny resources and limitations set by privacy rules in some parts of the world. We would be happy to know of better ways to ascertain the honesty of each votes. We cannot ban characters as I have seen what happened to other events that banned characters for bad behaviors of some of the supporters: It lead to downward spiral of people trying to ban more characters in any way possible.I am sorry that our best is not up to your standard, but we simply can't overrule the desire of thousands of other people for you.
How about if we confirm that this man is a fan of tousaka rin , and he do have attract for other people to vote for money. Not only once in the hupu BBS, but multiple times ,we can provide the following evidence. Moreover, we figured that this guy should probably the same guy who is in charging rin's fans club in QQ basically voting for isml (having the same id, profile picture, age as well as the address),This kind of behavior does not meet the rules, please check.
While this gives us more confidence in great number of Rin votes we removed, it does not shake our confidence about votes we did count.
But the behavior of rin's fans is against the law. A thief who stole the money violated the law. You did not take him to the police station, but let him pay the money and let him go. Other fans will also buy votes where we don't know, and you can't get rid of these votes.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by Loveisthebest » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:54 pm

maglor wrote:
Loveisthebest wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
I'm sorry if you don't trust us. We do not believe in disproportionate responses to every unethical violations we find. To our best ability, we did what we believe to be justifiable. Multiple people are involved in vote checking, and we make sure there are sufficient checks and balances to not let a single person's bias influence the outcome. The current result is what we believe to be closest we can come to the combined will of thousands of people who bothered to participate in voting today, given our puny resources and limitations set by privacy rules in some parts of the world. We would be happy to know of better ways to ascertain the honesty of each votes. We cannot ban characters as I have seen what happened to other events that banned characters for bad behaviors of some of the supporters: It lead to downward spiral of people trying to ban more characters in any way possible.I am sorry that our best is not up to your standard, but we simply can't overrule the desire of thousands of other people for you.
How about if we confirm that this man is a fan of tousaka rin , and he do have attract for other people to vote for money. Not only once in the hupu BBS, but multiple times ,we can provide the following evidence. Moreover, we figured that this guy should probably the same guy who is in charging rin's fans club in QQ basically voting for isml (having the same id, profile picture, age as well as the address),This kind of behavior does not meet the rules, please check.
While this gives us more confidence in great number of Rin votes we removed, it does not shake our confidence about votes we did count.
And the rin's fan, who buys votes, is the leader of RIN's fan group. Leaders do this by blatantly ignoring the announcements on the voting page, so they deserve to be punished.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by Loveisthebest » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:07 pm

Loveisthebest wrote:
maglor wrote:
Loveisthebest wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
I'm sorry if you don't trust us. We do not believe in disproportionate responses to every unethical violations we find. To our best ability, we did what we believe to be justifiable. Multiple people are involved in vote checking, and we make sure there are sufficient checks and balances to not let a single person's bias influence the outcome. The current result is what we believe to be closest we can come to the combined will of thousands of people who bothered to participate in voting today, given our puny resources and limitations set by privacy rules in some parts of the world. We would be happy to know of better ways to ascertain the honesty of each votes. We cannot ban characters as I have seen what happened to other events that banned characters for bad behaviors of some of the supporters: It lead to downward spiral of people trying to ban more characters in any way possible.I am sorry that our best is not up to your standard, but we simply can't overrule the desire of thousands of other people for you.
How about if we confirm that this man is a fan of tousaka rin , and he do have attract for other people to vote for money. Not only once in the hupu BBS, but multiple times ,we can provide the following evidence. Moreover, we figured that this guy should probably the same guy who is in charging rin's fans club in QQ basically voting for isml (having the same id, profile picture, age as well as the address),This kind of behavior does not meet the rules, please check.
While this gives us more confidence in great number of Rin votes we removed, it does not shake our confidence about votes we did count.
And the rin's fan, who buys votes, is the leader of RIN's fan group. Leaders do this by blatantly ignoring the announcements on the voting page, so they deserve to be punished.
Leaders who do such things must encourage their fans to do the same
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by Loveisthebest » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:13 pm

maglor wrote:
Loveisthebest wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
I'm sorry if you don't trust us. We do not believe in disproportionate responses to every unethical violations we find. To our best ability, we did what we believe to be justifiable. Multiple people are involved in vote checking, and we make sure there are sufficient checks and balances to not let a single person's bias influence the outcome. The current result is what we believe to be closest we can come to the combined will of thousands of people who bothered to participate in voting today, given our puny resources and limitations set by privacy rules in some parts of the world. We would be happy to know of better ways to ascertain the honesty of each votes. We cannot ban characters as I have seen what happened to other events that banned characters for bad behaviors of some of the supporters: It lead to downward spiral of people trying to ban more characters in any way possible.I am sorry that our best is not up to your standard, but we simply can't overrule the desire of thousands of other people for you.
How about if we confirm that this man is a fan of tousaka rin , and he do have attract for other people to vote for money. Not only once in the hupu BBS, but multiple times ,we can provide the following evidence. Moreover, we figured that this guy should probably the same guy who is in charging rin's fans club in QQ basically voting for isml (having the same id, profile picture, age as well as the address),This kind of behavior does not meet the rules, please check.
While this gives us more confidence in great number of Rin votes we removed, it does not shake our confidence about votes we did count.
The punishment is not just a removal of the votes bought, but a satisfactory treatment for other fans who try to canvass
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by misora » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:46 pm

emm, I don't realize the result of Rin vs Katou have such effects

Rematch is a good idea, at least my current evidences are strong enough to prove that Rin has at least 58 illegal ballots
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by misora » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:47 pm

Loveisthebest wrote:But the behavior of rin's fans is against the law. A thief who stole the money violated the law. You did not take him to the police station, but let him pay the money and let him go. Other fans will also buy votes where we don't know, and you can't get rid of these votes.
Show your evidences if you can, that is straightforward
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by misora » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:52 pm

maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:
mitsuho wrote:
maglor wrote:Here is what I can do. Please give me two sets of evidence :

1. Give us something to objectively ascertain the votes bought by bribery. We will check it with our data to make sure that these votes were removed. If they weren't and the number may be great enough to overturn the result, we will act on it.

2. If possible please give us something to objectively ascertain votes for other contestants in the question, namely Shiina Mashiro, Tokisaki Kurumi, and Katou Megumi(?), that were free from unethical behavior and of enough quantity to perhaps outnumber honest votes for Tohsaka Rin. I know proving honesty is sometimes harder than proving guilt, but I would appreciate it if we have more reasons to believe those votes for the characters in question were of honest types.
The last reply of me

I went to https://bbs.hupu.com/20169640.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which is one of the bribing evidences posted. This is the competition between Katou and Rin. Rin won the game as 2092:1838, so Katou's points are 12.878, less than Miyamitsu 12.903.

In this posts, there are totally 58 ballots for Rin, each of them are paid 20币, equals to 2 Yuan, undoubtedly bribing.

If these 58 ballots are removed, Rin vs Katou is 2034:1838, so Katou's point is 12.904>12.903

Then Sapphire has different candidates, it should be rematched

If you insist that Katou would also have some ballots paid by her supporters, you can upload your evidences, but I am sure there will be invalid ballots from Rin's supporters (I am not familiar with Chinese forums)
Majority of those ballots were among the Rin votes we removed in that match.
How do you know you've removed them? You don't even know their IP address
IP isn't the only way to track down a vote.
That is funny.

You ask for evidences for everything I suggest, but actually the link I put above is accessible for everybody, and everyone can count how many ballots therein.

In this respect, how do you prove you have removed these ballots?

Don't send me screenshots or text files as all of them can be fabricated.

If you can't prove that you have removed those ballots, does that mean they are still in your system?
I'm sorry if you don't trust us. We do not believe in disproportionate responses to every unethical violations we find. To our best ability, we did what we believe to be justifiable. Multiple people are involved in vote checking, and we make sure there are sufficient checks and balances to not let a single person's bias influence the outcome. The current result is what we believe to be closest we can come to the combined will of thousands of people who bothered to participate in voting today, given our puny resources and limitations set by privacy rules in some parts of the world. We would be happy to know of better ways to ascertain the honesty of each votes. We cannot ban characters as I have seen what happened to other events that banned characters for bad behaviors of some of the supporters: It lead to downward spiral of people trying to ban more characters in any way possible.I am sorry that our best is not up to your standard, but we simply can't overrule the desire of thousands of other people for you.
It is clear that there is problem of this match

You are not trusted because you don't have enough evidences to support what you declare. It is unfair that only you are requiring evidences but never show your evidences proving that you are not standing with Rin or fate.

Not only me but at least 5 people here require rematch now, and there will be more if more people realize your injustice
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by maglor » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:45 pm

I still believe we have sufficiently accounted for effects from all the bribery that we have uncovered. I refuse to remove the votes we believe to not be influenced by bribery. Our best estimate of the votes uninfluenced by bribery says Rin is the clear winner. If you can give me some evidence for how hundreds of people outside of China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, and who cannot read Chinese, was bribed by leaders of Chinese forum you mentioned, then I can reconsider.



Furthermore, ISML Constitution does not have rules and process laid out for invalidating a win in case of bribery and other voting fraud. We cannot invalidate today's result without a firm rule and due process in place. These rules and due process is something that should be applied to all future matches in fair way. It must give the "accused" chance to defend itself. There must be an objective level of burden of proof the accuser brings in order to initiate the process. The magnitude of voting fraud must be significant so we don't throw out a result every time a person buys his friend a dinner for his votes, even if it is a fancy full course French dinner ( Estimated price of $300 ). The rule should take into account ALL FORMS of voting fraud as bribery alone cannot be considered as the only type of unethical behavior that warrants overturning of the results. If you can give us a good comprehensive rule with fair due process, we will hold a public hearing on the rule to make sure such rule cannot be abused. If we are reasonably sure that we have a fair rule for investigating and punishing unethical behaviors of most types of voting fraud we are aware of, then we can use such rule to overturn today's results or have a rematch.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by misora » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:09 am

maglor wrote:I still believe we have sufficiently accounted for effects from all the bribery that we have uncovered. I refuse to remove the votes we believe to not be influenced by bribery. Our best estimate of the votes uninfluenced by bribery says Rin is the clear winner. If you can give me some evidence for how hundreds of people outside of China, who cannot read Chinese, was bribed by leaders of Chinese forum you mentioned, then I can reconsider.



Furthermore, ISML Constitution does not have rules and process laid out for invalidating a win in case of bribery and other voting fraud. We cannot invalidate today's result without a firm rule and due process in place. These rules and due process is something that should be applied to all future matches in fair way. It must give the "accused" chance to defend itself. There must be an objective level of burden of proof the accuser brings in order to initiate the process. The magnitude of voting fraud must be significant so we don't throw out a result every time a person buys his friend a dinner for his votes, even if it is a fancy full course French dinner ( Estimated price of $300 ). The rule should take into account ALL FORMS of voting fraud as bribery alone cannot be considered as the only type of unethical behavior that warrants overturning of the results. If you can give us a good comprehensive rule with fair due process, we will hold a public hearing on the rule to make sure such rule cannot be abused. If we are reasonably sure that we have a fair rule for investigating and punishing unethical behaviors of most types of voting fraud we are aware of, then we can use such rule to overturn today's results or have a rematch.
How do you know you've cleared all the bribery ballots? Any objective evidences?

How do you know all those ballots are from China? Just because they speak Chinese?

How do you know the ballots of the people who don't speak Chinese are not from China?

How do you prove that the match between Rin and Katou is clean enough that Katou is not able to participate the necklace match?

What does "best estimate" mean?

Why do you ask me how ISML should establish rules to prevent bribery? Isn't that your responsibility to prevent such scandals in ISML?
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by maglor » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:21 am

misora wrote:
maglor wrote:I still believe we have sufficiently accounted for effects from all the bribery that we have uncovered. I refuse to remove the votes we believe to not be influenced by bribery. Our best estimate of the votes uninfluenced by bribery says Rin is the clear winner. If you can give me some evidence for how hundreds of people outside of China, who cannot read Chinese, was bribed by leaders of Chinese forum you mentioned, then I can reconsider.



Furthermore, ISML Constitution does not have rules and process laid out for invalidating a win in case of bribery and other voting fraud. We cannot invalidate today's result without a firm rule and due process in place. These rules and due process is something that should be applied to all future matches in fair way. It must give the "accused" chance to defend itself. There must be an objective level of burden of proof the accuser brings in order to initiate the process. The magnitude of voting fraud must be significant so we don't throw out a result every time a person buys his friend a dinner for his votes, even if it is a fancy full course French dinner ( Estimated price of $300 ). The rule should take into account ALL FORMS of voting fraud as bribery alone cannot be considered as the only type of unethical behavior that warrants overturning of the results. If you can give us a good comprehensive rule with fair due process, we will hold a public hearing on the rule to make sure such rule cannot be abused. If we are reasonably sure that we have a fair rule for investigating and punishing unethical behaviors of most types of voting fraud we are aware of, then we can use such rule to overturn today's results or have a rematch.
How do you know you've cleared all the bribery ballots? Any objective evidences?

How do you know all those ballots are from China? Just because they speak Chinese?

How do you know the ballots of the people who don't speak Chinese are not from China?

How do you prove that the match between Rin and Katou is clean enough that Katou is not able to participate the necklace match?

What does "best estimate" mean?

Why do you ask me how ISML should establish rules to prevent bribery? Isn't that your responsibility to prevent such scandals in ISML?
We tracked down as many of the bribery ballots as possible when posted. We eliminated votes that were considered similar enough. I can't reveal further as it will let people know how to avoid our detection.

Country of origin and language of the user isn't too hard to find out. Please consult your computer experts on how to know these

If the vote is from countries that don't speak chinese, and if the user isn't using Chinese, then this is best we can do to ascertain non-Chinese speaking votes. WE do have GREAT NUMBER of them, with proven record of not using Chinese

Katou Megumi case cannot be reviewed as the objection has been raised past 24 hour limit. Furthermore, the votes you showed us were tracked down already.

In internet you can never be 100% certain about anything. Best estimate is best we can do given our resources.

WE don't have a rule. You requested something that wasn't in the rule. We want to know how you imagine the rule should be. If you can't provide us with what you believe is a fair objective guideline for such a case, how can you claim higher moral ground? If we overturn this, I want to establish clear reason and limitations to how this case can be used in the future. Since you are the person who raised the issue, any fair rule and due process must include your input. It is my responsibility to make sure the rules to combat and punish bribery AND OTHER FORMS OF VOTING FRAUD, is fair, objective, and acceptable to the majority of international voters. To act without proper rule in place would be abuse of power.
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by Reverend » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:34 am

misora wrote: It is clear that there is problem of this match

You are not trusted because you don't have enough evidences to support what you declare. It is unfair that only you are requiring evidences but never show your evidences proving that you are not standing with Rin or fate.

Not only me but at least 5 people here require rematch now, and there will be more if more people realize your injustice
1. there are always problems in every match of every round, especially if Chinese are involved. The staff have made, revised, repaired, improved this anti-cheating system numerous times. And these guys (the staff) are real pro with actual univ degree in their respective field.

2. you wouldn't believe the amount of votes the staff invalidated every single round since like... ISML 2009(?)

3. the data you are asking for is sensitive, bcs if the staff spoil those, the MVs and paid voters and other cheaters of various methods will be able to learn how many and which of their votes got invalidated, thus giving them infos on how to better their system. As the ones who have to deal with the increase amount of cheat votes, surely the staff couldn't allow those cheaters a chance to improve, could they?

4. and even if they spoil those data, you will not be satisfied. (spoiler: Rin wins anyway -_-)

5. you mean 5 new IDs? Welcome to society, mate. It's unfair, but Chinese do it even worse.

6. The problem you posted is old problem. This is not the only instance this forum has seen some random new account ranting about results and saying some people did paid-voting. (Well, voting involving real currency is cheating. That's what our discussion years ago resulted in. Thus is Maglor's stance.)
The staffs are already experience with this very problem. The current vote-check system was also made to deal with this problem.

Well, not that you will believe this anyway. Salty fanboys so salty as usual.

hey I have an idea. How about next time, you bring these "friends" you said you have into ISML, and then votes for the characters you like?
Bilibili Saimoe have huge number of voters. Since I'm assuming you all are real "people", getting your fav chara to win shouldn't be too hard, no?
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Re: Rin's voter pay for ballots in some Chinese forums

Post by Eisdrache » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:38 am

Jesus fucking christ, there is no need to quote a huge wall of text if you're just going to write 2 lines in your reply. Please stop.

First of all whether this is done by Chinese or Swiss or Americans doesn't matter, it's illegal and should be punished accordingly. Nor does it matter whether there is one person or several thousand with a specific demand. If they have a valid argument then the staff have to take that input into consideration. That said I know most of the ISML staff members even before this tournament was founded, worked with them for some time and can assure you that they are doing everything in their capacity to do so.

Second if the staff had to show proof to everyone with a complaint we would never finish a single round. You are being told by an official member of staff that these votes have been removed and if you don't want to believe that then that's that. I hardly believe that someone who thinks that IP is the only way to track vote input could do something with that proof in the first place anyway.

PS: Removing characters is such a great idea. Really tells how much you have thought this out.

Third post #300 yaaaay orz
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