ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Shmion84 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:02 pm

Personally I prefer Option 1. It's the most straight forward and simplest option. Order of preference: Option 1 > Option 2 > Option 3
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:06 pm

Additionally, option 4 can put more characters (not only tiara winners) into Hall of Frame, which will make many people happy. This is the major difference between option 4 and 1.
We want more people to be happy, don't we? In short, option 4 is a modified version for both 1 & 3.
Last edited by Homura on Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Magnux7 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:09 pm

minhtam1638 wrote:
Magnux7 wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:I propose a counter option. I call it Option 3.

Option 3 is as follows:

A) Go with everything in option 2.
B) In addition, no contestant will be allowed to win the same jewel she has won before. So for example, neither Kanade, Mikoto, or any previous Aquamarine winner can be eligible to win the necklace again.
C) From this point forward, any character that completes the collection of all 7 jewels AND the tiara will be retired. A special Hall of Fame section will be created to honor each of those contestants' achievements. These characters will no longer be able to participate in future main seasons going forward, but will be able to enter the Tournament of Champions if they qualify to do so.
D) To ensure all contestants have a chance to complete the collection, the Sapphire and Diamond ciclets will alternate between the Stella and Nova divisions each year.

Done. This will solve the Kanade/Mikoto problem for good.
I like your way of thinking and your new ideas ^^ :)
There's just one thing though, it MAY take several years before any character manages to complete the entire collection.
Which means, we'll have to stick around with Mikoto and Kanade for a while.
I personally don't mind it, but some are tired of Kanade and Mikoto
At minimum, this quest would take 5 years to complete under current rules. So yeah, there's that. However, in the short term, within three years, 3 characters can be retired under this model. And by doing so, they spare themselves from leaving ISML the traditional way - the way of losing, which both Kanade and Mikoto clearly don't want to do. Consider this:

Kanade is missing Ruby and Emerald. She wins Ruby in 2015 and Emerald in 2016. Boom. She's done.

Mikoto is missing a lot, specifically Amethyst, Emerald, Topaz, and Sapphire. She wins Amethyst in 2015, then narrowly loses to Kanade for Emerald. Wins Topaz in 2016 instead. If we assume the ciclets are switched, she should get Sapphire. Then Emerald in 2017 and she is done. We can also consider Mikoto beating Kanade for Emerald in 2016, but by then, 2017 should see Emerald to Kanade and Topaz to Mikoto. Double Whammy.

The Staff can also consider removing the one necklace per year rule to make this accomplishment easier for both of them. If so, Kanade can be gone in 2015 and Mikoto in 2016 if this is done correctly. However, this can discourage voters in the short run, so I don't mind if the one-per-year rule is retained.

And there you have it. Of course, I did mention that three can retire, but only spelled out what Kanade and Mikoto have to do. So can you figure out who the third one is and what she has to do to retire by 2016?
I see, thanks for the info (:
Don't forget that upsets may happen though.
If Kanade or Mikoto unexpectedly loses their necklace matches one year, then the process will take longer.

I'm kind of new to ISML, so I'm not updated about who has the most necklaces/circlets.
Therefore I'm not sure who the third one will be ^^;
I know Shana has a lot of them, but it will be hard for her to win the Tiara.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:17 pm

Homura wrote:Additionally, option 4 can put more characters (not only tiara winners) into Hall of Frame, which will make many people happy. This is the major difference between option 4 and 1.
We want more people to be happy, don't we? In short, option 4 is a modified version for both 1 & 3.
Option 4 doesn't solve the Aquamarine mess. Voter opinion right now is that, barring a massive upset, either Mikoto or Kanade will win Aquamarine again, and voters want to see a new Aquamarine winner. Your proposed option is well intentioned, but it doesn't solve that problem.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:28 pm

minhtam1638 wrote:
Homura wrote:Additionally, option 4 can put more characters (not only tiara winners) into Hall of Frame, which will make many people happy. This is the major difference between option 4 and 1.
We want more people to be happy, don't we? In short, option 4 is a modified version for both 1 & 3.
Option 4 doesn't solve the Aquamarine mess. Voter opinion right now is that, barring a massive upset, either Mikoto or Kanade will win Aquamarine again, and voters want to see a new Aquamarine winner. Your proposed option is well intentioned, but it doesn't solve that problem.
Homura wrote:Also, necklace color can reflect characters' popularity in one specific year (ex. Kanade won two Aquamarines in 2012 & 2013, suggesting that she is probably the most popular character in those two years).
Yeah, I see your point. But though the Aquamarine mess is not welcomed by some voters, it reflects the fact that Kanade & Mikoto are the most popular characters in these couple of years.
I do think this fact is important, at least better than illusion. We shouldn't elude the fact. Btw, option 4 already puts Kanade in Hall of Frame. It doesn't particularly focus on Aquamarine mess, instead quickly solving the long term problem.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:41 pm

Homura wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:
Homura wrote:Additionally, option 4 can put more characters (not only tiara winners) into Hall of Frame, which will make many people happy. This is the major difference between option 4 and 1.
We want more people to be happy, don't we? In short, option 4 is a modified version for both 1 & 3.
Option 4 doesn't solve the Aquamarine mess. Voter opinion right now is that, barring a massive upset, either Mikoto or Kanade will win Aquamarine again, and voters want to see a new Aquamarine winner. Your proposed option is well intentioned, but it doesn't solve that problem.
Homura wrote:Also, necklace color can reflect characters' popularity in one specific year (ex. Kanade won two Aquamarines in 2012 & 2013, suggesting that she is probably the most popular character in those two years).
Yeah, I see your point. But though the Aquamarine mess is not welcomed by some voters, it reflects the fact that Kanade & Mikoto are the most popular characters in these couple of years.
I do think this fact is important, at least better than illusion. We shouldn't elude the fact. Btw, option 4 already puts Kanade in Hall of Frame.
That's the other thing I'm worried about. Option 3 at least gives Kanade nation a year or two to plan out how they wish to leave their legacy in ISML. Do they call it quits because they cannot win the Tiara anymore? Or will they rise up and let Kanade accomplish what nobody even dared to dream of - a complete set? If we pull the trigger on Option 4 now, Kanade is out, and so will their fanbase, and her fanbase will feel like they were unceremoniously kicked out, which will make for terrible PR on the Staff's end. Remember that there is already distrust for the staff from some of the voters, and the Staff wants to desperately change that.

And one other thing: I never wanted to see one necklace become more important than the others, but that is what Aquamarine is now, and I want to fix that however I can.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:48 pm

minhtam1638 wrote:
Homura wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:
Homura wrote:Additionally, option 4 can put more characters (not only tiara winners) into Hall of Frame, which will make many people happy. This is the major difference between option 4 and 1.
We want more people to be happy, don't we? In short, option 4 is a modified version for both 1 & 3.
Option 4 doesn't solve the Aquamarine mess. Voter opinion right now is that, barring a massive upset, either Mikoto or Kanade will win Aquamarine again, and voters want to see a new Aquamarine winner. Your proposed option is well intentioned, but it doesn't solve that problem.
Homura wrote:Also, necklace color can reflect characters' popularity in one specific year (ex. Kanade won two Aquamarines in 2012 & 2013, suggesting that she is probably the most popular character in those two years).
Yeah, I see your point. But though the Aquamarine mess is not welcomed by some voters, it reflects the fact that Kanade & Mikoto are the most popular characters in these couple of years.
I do think this fact is important, at least better than illusion. We shouldn't elude the fact. Btw, option 4 already puts Kanade in Hall of Frame.
That's the other thing I'm worried about. Option 3 at least gives Kanade nation a year or two to plan out how they wish to leave their legacy in ISML. Do they call it quits because they cannot win the Tiara anymore? Or will they rise up and let Kanade accomplish what nobody even dared to dream of - a complete set? If we pull the trigger on Option 4 now, Kanade is out, and so will their fanbase, and her fanbase will feel like they were unceremoniously kicked out, which will make for terrible PR on the Staff's end. Remember that there is already distrust for the staff from some of the voters, and the Staff wants to desperately change that.

And one other thing: I never wanted to see one necklace become more important than the others, but that is what Aquamarine is now, and I want to fix that however I can.
I understand. Thus, if the staff prefers option 2 than 1, I'll support your option 3. On the other side, if the staff insists on option 1, I do think option 4 will work in a better way since for Kanade fans there is no difference between 1 and 4.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Desufire » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:54 pm

After sleeping on it, I think Option 1 is the best choice, WITH ONE EXCEPTION!

First year Tiara winners (Royal Roaders) should be allowed into the Regular season for at least one more year, being allowed in the Regular season for only one year seems a bit unfair to me, and then they can experience Nova and Stella at least once each (They are still banned from Postseason though)
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:14 pm

My short summary of option 1, 2, 3, & 4.
Option 1: extremely unfair for Kotori or many other future tiara winners.
Option 2: without a retirement system, which violates the rule of nature and continues killing lots of momentum for new contestants.
Option 3: may take 10 years to accomplish relatively small achievements.
Option 4: very likely forces some still strong veterans to say goodbye to tiara, which is cruel.

Guys please carefully read them, and maybe you'll generate a great idea.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by maglor » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:31 pm

Desufire wrote:After sleeping on it, I think Option 1 is the best choice, WITH ONE EXCEPTION!

First year Tiara winners (Royal Roaders) should be allowed into the Regular season for at least one more year, being allowed in the Regular season for only one year seems a bit unfair to me, and then they can experience Nova and Stella at least once each (They are still banned from Postseason though)
Interesting consequence of this may be that having Kotori around may reduce chance for Kurumi, Yoshino, or Tohka to win a necklace.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:52 pm

Well, if the big opposition to Option 1 is Kotori, why not put the "ban" on Tiara winners that already have 1 necklace? That way, Kotori can have the chance to get the necklace she wants. This also gives Fate an opportunity to go win one herself if and when she is strong enough to be a contender again. If this amendment is accepted, I think I would be ok with the other 5 out.

I'd still prefer Option 3, but it is what it is.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:03 pm

maglor wrote:
Desufire wrote:After sleeping on it, I think Option 1 is the best choice, WITH ONE EXCEPTION!

First year Tiara winners (Royal Roaders) should be allowed into the Regular season for at least one more year, being allowed in the Regular season for only one year seems a bit unfair to me, and then they can experience Nova and Stella at least once each (They are still banned from Postseason though)
Interesting consequence of this may be that having Kotori around may reduce chance for Kurumi, Yoshino, or Tohka to win a necklace.
maglor, I suggest we start talking more about facts instead of possibilities. The fact: For kotori and quite number of future tiara winners, option 1 will make it impossible for any of them to win same amount of achievements as Kanade and Mikoto did. Fate-type of tiara holders are different since at least they have been given a chance. Directly taking away the chance (or right) is one of the worst things that could happen. Nevertheless, I don't feel bad to see you devotedly defend option 1, since people have the right to persuade others to believe their plans are right. Actually, I appreciate that.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Sphire » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:42 pm

maglor wrote:Here is how I view the Option 1.

By introducing ToC, we have made the current prelim+Regular Season + Postseason to Tiara, a Qualifying round into the ultimate crown that can be won in Tournament of the Champions. It can be thought that past Tiara winners are Auto qualified to the Ultimate stage of the year, not needing to face elimination during prelim, regular season, nor postseason Tiara matches. Furthermore, Tiara winners can't maintain their lofty auto status forever. If they lose in the 1st round of ToC, the four that does will be thrown into Survival match. The contestant that finish last in the Survival match will be asked to retire and they will be receiving a nice big Hall of Fame Plaque for all their service to ISML. Perhaps they can un-retire if extraordinary situation arises. So, it isn't like they are banned from ISML. The "active" Tiara winners are given free ride into the grand finale stage of the year.
I hate that bolded part. Just sounds like people can argue that so and so is the better champion because they've now won the ToC, which is negating the effect of time on some (most) Tiara bearers. It's devaluing the Tiara in an official sense. Past, present and future Tiara winners. If Kanade just ends up continuously winning the ToC, is that any better? Or if all that happens is that that year's Tiara winner continuously wins the same year ToC, then it's just redundant and pointless. Might as well just retire the Tiara bearers than give them an even loftier height that works against pratically everyone except Kanade and Mikoto.

I'm not really going to comment on Options or Models unless they come from official staff members. As it is, I still prefer Option 1 with maybe Desufire's exception added making it interesting.

My 2 primary dislikes are first: No Tiara bearers for RS and more importantly PS. So if we're taking them away from PS, I feel you might as well take them away from RS (Option 1). I don't like it, but I don't see the point of them hanging around in RS.
Second: The ToC is more important than the Tiara itself. I'd prefer it to not even be a thing, but if we want the Tiara bearers to play around at least once, making it more important than the Tiara is sad to me. Maybe have it once every 8 years and retire everyone at the end. So winning the Tiara still means something and is the best yearly prize, while the ToC is just some sorta celebration of the past 8 years or something, featuring the 8 Tiara winners (this was just some random quick thought).

I don't really want to make too much noise given that it's not my tourney and it's not like I don't see the Kanade and older gang problem.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Magnux7 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:49 pm

Why don't we just make a poll so people can vote on the option they prefer ;p
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by RailWarrior » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:51 pm

Sphire wrote:My 2 primary dislikes are first: No Tiara bearers for RS and more importantly PS. So if we're taking them away from PS, I feel you might as well take them away from RS (Option 1). I don't like it, but I don't see the point of them hanging around in RS.
This is what I don't understand. Why do people think PS is more important than RS? PS does nothing but crown someone; RS is where all the stats are at. The primary goal of a moe contest shouldn't be to choose a champion, but merely to gauge how contestants do against each other. I would understand if people argue for "if they're not in RS, take them away from PS" but arguing for the converse, in my opinion, doesn't make sense.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Bastion » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:52 pm

Homura wrote:Guys please carefully read them, and maybe you'll generate a idea.
Already posted my idea, and it seemed to be ignored.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:59 pm

Bastion wrote:
Homura wrote:Guys please carefully read them, and maybe you'll generate a idea.
Already posted my idea, and it seemed to be ignored.
oh sorry! I have read your post twice but with some trouble to understand it. I'll read again now.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:00 am

After reading through the new options, here are my comments on each of them:

Option 3: minhtam's mistake is that he thinks there is a Kanade/Mikoto problem to be solved, but there isn't. The staff has no problem with repeat winners or quite frankly Kanade/Mikoto domination of the Aquamarine necklace. What we do have a problem with, is how previous tiara winners change the voting attitude of voters in postseason, since people will vote on the basis of "anti-Tiara" or "double-Tiara" instead of voting for moe. This is our main problem, which is why we're removing Tiara winners from postseason, and why we agree that Option 2 was a possibility. In short, banning someone from winning the same necklace twice, while still let them participate in Regular Season, only suggests that the staff is against a character being strong. It's like handicapping a strong contestant unnecessarily, and I would rather not have them participate in Regular Season and honor them in the Tournament of Champions.

Option 4: Let me summarize your idea. If a contestant wins the Tiara, and is also dominant enough to win 7 jewels, then she has proven herself as worthy and can be admitted to the Hall of Fame. This is a fine idea, but in my opinion we are putting an arbitrary limit (7 jewels) on strength. There is a better way to make it fair for first year Tiara winners (Fate, Mio, Kotori) such as the next option below. The second part should never happen, because it takes away someone's chance at winning the Tiara ever, and I strongly disapprove of that. Yes, I realize that some of you think contestants like Shana has made her impact and deserves to be honored. But at the same time, Shana fans has not given up hope, and would like to give her another chance at winning a Tiara.
Desufire wrote:After sleeping on it, I think Option 1 is the best choice, WITH ONE EXCEPTION!

First year Tiara winners (Royal Roaders) should be allowed into the Regular season for at least one more year, being allowed in the Regular season for only one year seems a bit unfair to me, and then they can experience Nova and Stella at least once each (They are still banned from Postseason though)
This idea makes the most sense to me, because it addresses a major problem I haven't thought of before. Because the first year winners would start in Nova, they would not have a chance to meet many of the Stella contestants. It seems very logical now that first year winners will have to participate in Regular Season again as Stella, so I am directly changing Option 1 to include this possibility. The reason I like this option is because we are not using any arbitrary restrictions such as 1 necklace or 7 necklaces. In fact, Kotori might not win any necklace again because of the DAL split.
Magnux7 wrote:Why don't we just make a poll so people can vote on the option they prefer ;p
That is the eventual outcome. At this time, we are just brainstorming to see if anyone has more ideas. It does not mean the staff will put all new ideas being presented on the ballot, but we will be trying to see which ones makes sense.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Sphire » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:08 am

RailWarrior wrote:
Sphire wrote:My 2 primary dislikes are first: No Tiara bearers for RS and more importantly PS. So if we're taking them away from PS, I feel you might as well take them away from RS (Option 1). I don't like it, but I don't see the point of them hanging around in RS.
This is what I don't understand. Why do people think PS is more important than RS? PS does nothing but crown someone; RS is where all the stats are at. The primary goal of a moe contest shouldn't be to choose a champion, but merely to gauge how contestants do against each other. I would understand if people argue for "if they're not in RS, take them away from PS" but arguing for the converse, in my opinion, doesn't make sense.
Eh? The goal of all moe tourneys is to crown a champion. In general, that champion is considered strongest (as much as some like to say otherwise).

PS is straight 1v1, nothing else matters. RS has all kinds of shenanigans, which makes it fun, but there are way more variables. As it is, RS is purposely vague so that voters don't really know a characters pure 1v1 strength, especially between Nova and Stella. That's not going to change under these rules. RS stats are useless.

Plus, except for Kotori, all we're going to see are ~70% of the same matches for the Tiara bearers anyway. They're all in Stella and are going to fight mostly the same people they fought this year. Maybe 70% is too much, I dunno, it was a random figure, but it'll be a lot of similar matches to this year (and last year, and the year before). Aquamarine will most likely still include Kanade and Mikoto or Kuroneko. Again. There is way more redundancy in terms of results in RS than in PS (more focused on PS2). No one has ever won 2 Tiaras. Necklaces on the other hand have been won repeatedly. Lossless seasons have been done repeatedly.

Yet you want to argue we should continue the repetitive nature of RS but stop what's never happened in PS2?
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:14 am

Kholdy wrote: It seems very logical now that first year winners will have to participate in Regular Season again as Stella, so I am directly changing Option 1 to include this possibility. The reason I like this option is because we are not using any arbitrary restrictions such as 1 necklace or 7 necklaces.
But how many years should Kotori stay in Stella? Finally you will still arbitrarily set a number, but not 7.
Kholdy wrote:
Magnux7 wrote:Why don't we just make a poll so people can vote on the option they prefer ;p
That is the eventual outcome.
Btw, will "no change" be put in the final ballot as a choice?
Last edited by Homura on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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