ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:20 am

Homura wrote:
Kholdy wrote: It seems very logical now that first year winners will have to participate in Regular Season again as Stella, so I am directly changing Option 1 to include this possibility. The reason I like this option is because we are not using any arbitrary restrictions such as 1 necklace or 7 necklaces.
But how many years should Kotori stay in Stella? Finally you will still arbitrarily set a number, but not 7.
She stays for only one year. This is not an arbitrary number, because the goal is for her to compete with Stella contestants. After one year, this goal is finished.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Magnux7 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:34 am

Homura wrote: But how many years should Kotori stay in Stella? Finally you will still arbitrarily set a number, but not 7.
If she is going to stay in stella, then 1 year is more than enough, otherwise it will be unfair for other Tiara winners.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by RailWarrior » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:34 am

Sphire wrote:PS is straight 1v1, nothing else matters. RS has all kinds of shenanigans, which makes it fun, but there are way more variables. As it is, RS is purposely vague so that voters don't really know a characters pure 1v1 strength, especially between Nova and Stella. That's not going to change under these rules. RS stats are useless.
Since when was PS pure 1 vs. 1? It's basically a free-for all sniping game.
Sphire wrote:Plus, except for Kotori, all we're going to see are ~70% of the same matches for the Tiara bearers anyway. They're all in Stella and are going to fight mostly the same people they fought this year. Maybe 70% is too much, I dunno, it was a random figure, but it'll be a lot of similar matches to this year (and last year, and the year before). Aquamarine will most likely still include Kanade and Mikoto or Kuroneko. Again. There is way more redundancy in terms of results in RS than in PS (more focused on PS2). No one has ever won 2 Tiaras. Necklaces on the other hand have been won repeatedly. Lossless seasons have been done repeatedly.
It's not redundant. It's an indicator that public sentiment hasn't changed much yet.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Sphire » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:50 am

RailWarrior wrote:
Sphire wrote:PS is straight 1v1, nothing else matters. RS has all kinds of shenanigans, which makes it fun, but there are way more variables. As it is, RS is purposely vague so that voters don't really know a characters pure 1v1 strength, especially between Nova and Stella. That's not going to change under these rules. RS stats are useless.
Since when was PS pure 1 vs. 1? It's basically a free-for all sniping game.
Not sure how to reply to that. At its core, PS is 1v1. Whatever imagenary things people want to claim happen as well, is pointless debate. Having Tiara bearers there or not changes little. You say PS has snipers as if RS doesn't anyway. So they're equal, and all I'm doing is treating them as equal. It also means that people will continuously call winners undeserved, regardless of these changes.
RailWarrior wrote:
Sphire wrote:Plus, except for Kotori, all we're going to see are ~70% of the same matches for the Tiara bearers anyway. They're all in Stella and are going to fight mostly the same people they fought this year. Maybe 70% is too much, I dunno, it was a random figure, but it'll be a lot of similar matches to this year (and last year, and the year before). Aquamarine will most likely still include Kanade and Mikoto or Kuroneko. Again. There is way more redundancy in terms of results in RS than in PS (more focused on PS2). No one has ever won 2 Tiaras. Necklaces on the other hand have been won repeatedly. Lossless seasons have been done repeatedly.
It's not redundant. It's an indicator that public sentiment hasn't changed much yet.
Damn, I have no idea why I used the word redundant. Repetitive was more the right word. Regardless, if people vote for Tiara bearers in PS, that also means public sentiment hasn't changed. Again, all I'm doing is treating RS and PS equally. Treating them different seems pointless.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:59 am

Sphire, as much as you think so, from data it's obvious many voters do not treat them equally. This is why they only come to vote for Postseason. I'm not disagreeing with you, since YOU are treating RS and PS equally and that's actually what we want. But unfortunately, many do not.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:11 am

RailWarrior wrote:
Sphire wrote:My 2 primary dislikes are first: No Tiara bearers for RS and more importantly PS. So if we're taking them away from PS, I feel you might as well take them away from RS (Option 1). I don't like it, but I don't see the point of them hanging around in RS.
This is what I don't understand. Why do people think PS is more important than RS? PS does nothing but crown someone; RS is where all the stats are at. The primary goal of a moe contest shouldn't be to choose a champion, but merely to gauge how contestants do against each other. I would understand if people argue for "if they're not in RS, take them away from PS" but arguing for the converse, in my opinion, doesn't make sense.
I don't want to cause an argument, but I didn't want to leave this paragraph floating around as if its truth.
1. Although PS is the most important, RS also weighs a lot (This is my opinion).
2. PS doesn't mean that much, and RS is even less important.
3. Prefer RS or treat them equally but admit that championship is the final goal of moe contest.
4. Championship is EVERYTHING!
Should I bet that > 98% voters have either of above 4 opinions? No, I shouldn't because it is simply the fact.

"Why do people think PS is more important than RS? PS does nothing but crown someone; RS is where all the stats are at. The primary goal of a moe contest shouldn't be to choose a champion, but merely to gauge how contestants do against each other." I'll never say you're wrong (actually you're not), but I want to make Sphire's opinions sound more logical & acceptable, instead let yours seem to be the more acceptable one. I can feel the strength you put in your arguments, so I want to bring here something to cover it.
Last edited by Homura on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:11 am

Alright. I think we've all established a conclusion that works for everybody. Are there still any objections to Option 1, with the addendum that Nova Tiara winners can stay one year to compete against Stella contestants?
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:12 am

I'm sure there are still objections, because I understand this idea is controversial to begin with. There will be people who wants no change, but alas we have to move on with change.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Desufire » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:16 am

Homura wrote: I don't want to cause an argument, but I didn't want to leave this paragraph floating around as if its truth.
It brings a tear to my eye whenever I'm quoted for justice and truth
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:25 am

Kholdy wrote:I'm sure there are still objections, because I understand this idea is controversial to begin with. There will be people who wants no change, but alas we have to move on with change.
I think this is going to work fine eventually. Instead, I think the real problem we have to deal with in near future (or right now) is how much the ToC should weigh. As Sphire said, it would be sad if many people deem the ToC champion as the most important (or with the most glory) even if you staff doesn't want.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:29 am

Desufire wrote:
Homura wrote: I don't want to cause an argument, but I didn't want to leave this paragraph floating around as if its truth.
It brings a tear to my eye whenever I'm quoted for justice and truth
lol I purposely quoted that sentence you put in postseason discussion. Last time I saw you use it, I really liked it!
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Sphire » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:35 am

Kholdy wrote:Sphire, as much as you think so, from data it's obvious many voters do not treat them equally. This is why they only come to vote for Postseason. I'm not disagreeing with you, since YOU are treating RS and PS equally and that's actually what we want. But unfortunately, many do not.
Hmm, that is true. Ah well, as it is, I guess I'm still with Option 1.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:51 am

Homura wrote:
Kholdy wrote:I'm sure there are still objections, because I understand this idea is controversial to begin with. There will be people who wants no change, but alas we have to move on with change.
I think this is going to work fine eventually. Instead, I think the real problem we have to deal with in near future (or right now) is how much the ToC should weigh. As Sphire said, it would be sad if many people deem the ToC champion as the most important (or with the most glory) even if you staff doesn't want.
I'm pretty sure that the Kanade and Mikoto fanbases are definitely going to treat it this way. We all wish they can still participate and elevate someone else to glory, but it's now a matter of time before we see if that will truly be the case.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:04 am

I think we'll go with Option 1 (with Nova Tiara winner addition). The majority of people who have read through this thread and understand all the ramifications of all options have decided on the new Option 1, and it covers/compromises what the other options are trying to do.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by avery-kun » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:13 am

Kholdy wrote:I think we'll go with Option 1 (with Nova Tiara winner addition). The majority of people who have read through this thread and understand all the ramifications of all options have decided on the new Option 1, and it covers/compromises what the other options are trying to do.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by maglor » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:01 am

The one of the danger ISML is facing is that most of the regular voters are either (1) those that voted for Characters that made it to 2014 Aquamarine Necklace match, or (2) those who only comes in for big events. We are losing voters whose favorite isn't in the series that appeared at least once in 2014 Aquamarine, Amethyst, or Ruby necklace match at alarming rate.(Let's call these series the Major series , and all the other series, the Other series ) What people need to realize is that, at the start of Prelim, voting pattern analysis suggests that total number of voters whose favorites were mostly in the Other series was bigger than the number of voters whose favorites were mostly in the Major series. ( It should also be noted that number of "Undecided", that is those whose favorites were distributed about equally among Major series and the Other series was slightly smaller than the number for "mostly Major series" group ) . Now, the number of series that makes up the Other series is much larger than number of series in the Major series group, thus as prelim progress, characters in the Major series groups repeatedly beats characters from the Other series group, as they have greater number of voters per series, and there are only a few case of the Other series character beating Major Series character. This slowly leads to desertion in the Other series supporters. The number of desertion of Other series supporters are made up for by arrival of many Undecided group, and some of the Major Series supporters, but by the Aquamarine round 7, most of the Other series supporters are gone. This desertion is part of the reason why the middle part of regular season is so stable in terms of rank and apparent power level of each characters. The pace of their desertion in 2014 was faster than 2013, which also was faster than 2012. This likely contributed to ISML having fewer votes in 2014. In 2014, we struggled much more than past to make up for the desertion of Other series supporters with new voters.

This lack of diversity in voter base is partly responsible for what appeared to be faction manipulations during PS I and PS II. It may also be responsible for the last three necklace match results. While many people dislike the concept of diversity, in ISML, diversity is essential to prevent a select few faction groups being able to manipulate the results against the wish of the majority. Diversity of voter helps prevent any faction manipulation attempt to have disproportionately large effect, and it also allows ISML to weather ebbs and tides of myriads of things that can happen during its long schedule. If you don't proactively take measures to promote and protect the diversity of voters, there is good chance ISML will degrade into mudfight between two big factions. Sadly, dominance of the past tiara winners is seriously discouraging voters that like different characters from joining, thus I believe it is in ISML's long term interest to guarantee more spaces for the weaker characters to gather fans. Given the overwhelming dominance past tiara winners have, it will take time for the Other series characters to grow big enough to be competitive, and I believe the time provided by Option 1 is the best way to provide sufficient time. ToC should help keep the Major series voters, as they have a chance to prove their dominance in the biggest stage of the year. Therefore, I think Option 1 may be the best choice to ensure diversity of voters, while retaining majority of the Major Series voters.

We need to note that Kotori's DAL series heavily dominated Nova, and some considered Stella as Kanade and Mikoto's playground. The average number of new series having a Tier 1 contestant in the first year of competition is less than two. With Kotori around, we can expect DAL series characters to continuously beat up almost all the new characters in Nova division. With Kanade, Mikoto, and Mio around, most of the characters in Stella will be mere Cannon fodders. Majority of the characters will have very little hope of winning anything. Furthermore, Stella will maintain its reputation as the big league dominating over the little league called Nova, which will indirectly hurt any newcomers to Nova, as a defeat in Nova division will feel much worse and life draining compared to a defeat in Stella division. If we want to give new characters enough time to grow and attract new voters to help maintain or improve diversity of ISML voters, it is very good idea to keep young knights at training away from the Fire Breathing Tiara wearing Dragons until they sufficiently grow up. For this, I think Option I will help much more than other options.

P.S. What I meant by Option 1 is the older version, where there was no 1st year exception.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by RailWarrior » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:04 am

Homura wrote:
RailWarrior wrote:
Sphire wrote:My 2 primary dislikes are first: No Tiara bearers for RS and more importantly PS. So if we're taking them away from PS, I feel you might as well take them away from RS (Option 1). I don't like it, but I don't see the point of them hanging around in RS.
This is what I don't understand. Why do people think PS is more important than RS? PS does nothing but crown someone; RS is where all the stats are at. The primary goal of a moe contest shouldn't be to choose a champion, but merely to gauge how contestants do against each other. I would understand if people argue for "if they're not in RS, take them away from PS" but arguing for the converse, in my opinion, doesn't make sense.
I don't want to cause an argument, but I didn't want to leave this paragraph floating around as if its truth.
1. Although PS is the most important, RS also weighs a lot (This is my opinion).
2. PS doesn't mean that much, and RS is even less important.
3. Prefer RS or treat them equally but admit that championship is the final goal of moe contest.
4. Championship is EVERYTHING!
Should I bet that > 98% voters have either of above 4 opinions? No, I shouldn't because it is simply the fact.
I'm aware that the majority places more emphasis of PS, and I'm not about to claim otherwise.

What I stated was just my own view on what the primary goal of these contests should be--measuring relative popularity, not crowning an absolute champion. I mean, Tiara and such is a fun bonus, but to me there's more meaning in 1 vs. 1 round robin match-ups.
Last edited by RailWarrior on Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:07 am

I have to say, while Kotori did dominate Nova, we simply don't know what will happen when she joins Stella. I don't want to take away that experience from her. But mostly, I agree with maglor that we need to increase diversity in the voter base, which is another reason why I'm for Option 1.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by 10ZHAbin » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:38 am

Should a ISML campaigning faction be started?

Another note though, the ToC is purposed to give the past champions a stage free of the repeat-winner curse, but like any online voting contest, the only time when a stage is void of anti-repeat is the first year. After the first year where a champion of champions is crowned, she will suffer blows from anti-repeat voters in ToC as she already won the ToC, the same goes for the second winner, the third winner and the all the winner to be come by as years go by.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by maglor » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:50 am

10ZHAbin wrote:Should a ISML campaigning faction be started?

Another note though, the ToC is purposed to give the past champions a stage free of the repeat-winner curse, but like any online voting contest, the only time when a stage is void of anti-repeat is the first year. After the first year where a champion of champions is crowned, she will suffer blows from anti-repeat voters in ToC as she already won the ToC, the same goes for the second winner, the third winner and the all the winner to be come by as years go by.
While what you said may happen, it will likely be confined to ToC . Right now, I think some form of anti-voting against "incumbents" is happening in regular season as well. I found it interesting that Last two Nova division 35-0 characters were those who did not win a Seasonal Tournament poster, while the Year's Seasonal Tournament poster winners ( 2012 : Asuna , 2013 : Kurumi ) didn't end up as top 2 in Nova division rank. The 2014 format gave people many reasons to be reminded that someone won a Tiara before for more than 9 month. With ToC format, people can not think about incumbents or repeat winner thing except for about a month within the whole year.
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