ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:20 pm

I probably should clarify that Commissioner Crisu drafted the Constitution in late 2009 with the help of a few staff members, both current and former, so don't give me too much credit. I just read it and signed off on it as soon as I read it.

I'm at a parish fundraising event right now, so I'll explain why I even bring up the mission statement in context to the Tournament of Champions as soon as I get home.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:29 pm

I personally think I gave an excellent modification (or compromise), but it gets hated...Now I see how much hatred there is for this whole thread...
Btw, I had done some search on ISML before I started my career at 2011 final, so...
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:33 am

Finally got home, and I finally put my thoughts on paper. What you are about to read is extremely long, but these are my thoughts on the entirety of the past week, and my thoughts alone. I suggest you read the spoilers for the full story, but if you’re not down to reading a tl;dr essay, you can skip past the spoilers to get to the main points.

Firstly, I want to put out there on the record that I support all of the proposed changes by the current ISML staff, and I look forward to seeing these changes finalized and officially announced on the ISML website. I understand that change is not easy, and I am not surprised that these changes were met with heavy opposition from all sides of the community. I commend them for listening to all the feedback that we as members of the community have to offer, even going so far as to amend some of their proposed changes. I know full well that change is not easy. It never is.
SpoilerShow
Six years ago, there were a few proposals to adjust how ISML worked from 2009 to 2010, including but not limited to cutting down the official ISML roster from 64 to 50, cutting down the number of auto-qualifications from 32 to 16, and holding a set of preliminary rounds to determine what was then the remaining 34 slots. I, being a young, brash, and immature 19-year-old at the time, opposed every single one of those changes. I was too close-minded. I never saw the big picture. I never thought to identify what the obvious problem of my original system was, and as a result, ISML did not move forward. Yet, my terrible attitude back then was not just directed toward the people that were willing to even work with me on this project, but toward everyone that I knew. I had fights with my family over this. I neglected having real life friends. I cut all of my church and club activities. I stopped talking to people just to try to make this work. I skipped classes. I neglected my homework. Everything that I did in 2009, it was wrong. Dead wrong, and it nearly destroyed my life as I knew it, and all of this because I didn’t want change. I wanted everything as it was. I wanted to live my life the way that I wanted to, and I wanted life to succumb to me in the way that I wanted.

I was absolutely wrong. Change is extremely integral in moving forward. It’s not a truth that I ever wanted to learn, but it’s the truth. If you don’t change, you fall behind. If you don’t evolve, you get passed over. You’re not the only one that exists. The world around you exists. And the world doesn’t revolve around you. The world is actually trying to leave you in the dust. The world is evolving at a rapid rate, and if you cannot keep up, you will be left to die. I know this because it almost happened to me, and I was forced to realize this before it was too late. But being that International Saimoe was still a success in 2009, there was no way I could let it fall with me. I had to hand over the keys of the spaceship to somebody else, because this spaceship was ready to move forward, and I wasn’t. I had to learn how to walk forward, so for the past five years, I had to work my tail off to salvage what I had left, and make something grow out of what little I had. Today, I have a Bachelor’s Degree in Mathematics. I work as an online high school math tutor for Tutor.com for side cash, and I am currently studying to be a math teacher in the graduate program at Fairfield University. Meanwhile, the keys were handed over to current Commissioner Crisu, one of the first people that willingly took a chance on this project when I started it. And damn, can he fly a spaceship.
The first thing you need to know when flying a spaceship is to figure out a destination. Where do you want to go? How do you get there? I know that on his first day on the job, Commissioner Crisu and a few staff members went to work right away in figuring out what purpose the International Saimoe League serves for its existence. The result of this is Article I of the ISML Constitution, which defines who we are, why we are, and what we are. How do we justify our existence? That’s where the rest of the Constitution comes in. Commissioner Crisu wrote it, had it peer reviewed, and then presented it to the rest of the staff, which included me at a time, but in a more reduced role. We saw it, discussed it, and after careful deliberation, we all accepted it. 17-0. Unanimous acceptance, forever immortalized by Article X, Section 1. Our direction is clear. Our route is clear. And from that point forward, the commissioner took the wheel and started flying.

So what is the mission of the International Saimoe League? Is it to discover who is the most moe among anime girls? I think that seems to be the common conception. However, discovering who is the most moe among anime girls is not our first priority. Allow me to quote the Mission Statement, as found under Article I, Section II.
The primary mission of ISML includes the following:
1. Increasing exposure of Japanese animation and pop culture to the public,
2. Discovering which anime character is the most moe as decided by majority rule
3. Maintaining a community and network of anime enthusiasts,
4. Planning and executing events responsibly, ethically, and efficiently.
Notice how discovering who is the most moe among anime girls is number two on that list? That’s because discovering who is the most moe among anime girls was never the staff’s primary focus. Our primary focus is to ensure that the public is being exposed to Japanese animation, and our desire is that the public is willing to give Japanese animation a chance to become part of their daily lives. There’s quite a lot of ways to do that. We just choose to do this a certain way, which is to discover who is the most moe as decided by majority rule. That’s the distinguishable trait that separates us from other anime websites.

Every major decision made by the staff since 2010 has been done with both #1 and #2 in mind. For example, in 2011, none of the anime that debuted in 2010, save for Angel Beats and Ore no Imouto had a strong run in the regular season, which is extremely important to entice the voting public to give those series a chance. 2010 had it worse, when the only 2009 (new) anime series that had a relatively strong run was K-On! (Sorry, Sengoku Nadeko and Senjougahara Hitagi, but 37-12 and 33-16 is not a strong run). The lack of new stars in those two years had the community clamoring for us to make a change that would get the newer series more recognition, and thus, the Stella and Nova divisions were born, with the Nova featuring characters from anime series that were considered more recent. Now people that are looking for something new can take a look at the Nova division standings and think “Oh, this character is pretty good, maybe I’ll check her series out.” This is a prime example of how #1 takes priority over #2. Does the Stella and Nova split improve the competition? Not really. But it allows the casual voting public to take a look at the new characters and base their anime viewing schedule around the Nova standings. Did it work? In theory, it should have worked, but something happened.

Misaka Mikoto happened. Tachibana Kanade happened. Gokou “Kuroneko” Ruri happened.
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First, the whole deal with Mikoto and Kanade that really set the 4-year spiral in motion. For those of you who weren’t there, Mikoto lost to Akiyama Mio in the 2010 tiara match, but considering she defeated perennial favorite Shana to do so, she came into 2011 as a favorite to win the tiara. However, there was major hype for the incoming Kanade. Angel Beats! was a great series, and given there historically was heavy Kyoto Animation bias at the top of the standings at that point, everyone expected Kanade to do extremely well. What ended up happening was that neither of them seemed to lose. Both of them went on a huge 48-0 run, somehow avoiding each other until the regular season finale. By Diamond 7, it was 48-0 Kanade vs. 48-0 Mikoto, where both competitors had a chance to be undefeated, and Kanade pulled it off. This set Mikoto’s fanbase reeling, and they hatched a counter plan. In a semifinals that featured #1 Kanade vs #4 Shana and #2 Mikoto vs #6 Ruri, Mikoto’s fanbase chose to blindside Kanade right then and there, so they threw some extra support to Shana, who by the way was already receiving a boost in voting due to her final season airing. As a result, we have a Shana vs. Mikoto finals, to which Mikoto won easily.

Did we complete mission #1? Well we already talked about that with the Stella/Nova split. Did we complete mission #2? That’s questionable. Mikoto may have deserved the tiara, but she was facing the wrong opponent in the finals. One could argue that the Kanade/Shana semifinals match wasn’t won on moe, it was won on vengeance. The bloody Kanade/Mikoto rivalry was on.

2012. The first year of the Nova/Stella split. Kanade was assigned to the Nova division, Mikoto to the Stella division. And I don’t think they took their eyes off each other the whole entire season. Kanade went to 35-0 and captured the Sapphire Circlet as a Nova #1, while Mikoto went 34-1 (a surprise loss to Nagato Yuki) and captured the Diamond Circlet as a Stella #1. But in the Tiara quarterfinals, Mikoto ran into the #2 Nova, Eucliwood Hellscythe (remember that name, because she’s going to come back later) and literally got blown to smithereens. No one thought anything at the time, because Eucliwood went an impressive 34-1 in the regular season, losing only to Kanade, but the mentality was starting to be festered. “Oh, Mikoto already won before, so of course she’s going to lose now.” There was also the possibility that Kanade’s fanbase launched the same attack on Mikoto and used Eucliwood as a scapegoat. I still think that Eucliwood would have won on her own accord anyway. But we all know the end to this story – a Kanade/Eucliwood finals where of course, Kanade won.

Did we complete mission #2? Yes. The four contestants in the tiara semifinals made Regular Season and Circlet runs worthy of a Tiara. Did we complete mission #1? I don’t think so. The Nova division was created to give new anime some exposure, yet the top 6 in the Nova division were all characters whose series was featured in 2011. Sure, we were introduced to Kashiwazaki Sena and Hasegawa Kobato, but they didn’t make the headlines that Eucliwood and Kanade made. Meanwhile, Stella looked like 2010 all over again. And finally, the league quarterfinals featured no first-year contestant. The staff’s intentions were all nice and dandy, but casual voters tend to look toward the top to determine what anime they should watch, and if they found that they’ve already met the major players, they might be inclined to skip the rest. That’s a yellow flag, but it should be ok. 2012 was intended to be a transitional year, and the real purpose of the Nova division would unfold in 2013. Or so we thought.

2013 was quite a year in the Stella division. First, Eucliwood proves her 2012 win over Mikoto wasn’t a fluke when she does it again in the season opener. Then, once the divide cleared, Kanade and Ruri were the only two undefeated Stella contestants by Amethyst 7. But in Topaz 1, Mikoto takes a huge win against longtime rival Kanade, leaving the door open for Ruri to defeat Kanade by a bare 34 votes in the season finale. Let me recap: Ruri went undefeated in Stella. This means she beat Mikoto and Kanade, the two superstars of 2012. This now puts Ruri at the Kanade/Mikoto level of play. Meanwhile, Nova showed a lot of promise, with first-years Shiina Mashiro, Takanashi Rikka, and Kuroyukihime doing extremely well in the Regular Season. Of course, we know what happened next. In the final tournament for the Tiara, Stella overtook Nova in the first round 6-2, with Mashiro and Kuroyukihime the only two that survived. Then Mashiro loses to Eucliwood, while Kuroyukihime simply could not find a way against Kanade. Thus, we end up with the exact same semifinals from the Stella Circlet tournament. Of course, we get Ruri vs. Kanade again, with same percentages for the semifinal matches, and then Ruri tops Kanade for the tiara by over 1000 votes. Isn’t that a little strange since just a few weeks ago, Kanade barely defeated Ruri by only 14 votes to get the Stella circlet?

Did we complete mission #2? Extremely debatable. Yes, Ruri had an amazing year, and could have potentially gone through the entire year undefeated, kind of like Kanade last year, and she definitely deserves the tiara. But the three Ruri/Kanade matches are extremely suspect. If Ruri/Kanade went down to the wire in Topaz 7, and Ruri/Kanade went down to the wire for the Stella Circlet, shouldn’t the tiara match also be the same? Where did the extra 1000 votes come from? This is the first real incriminating evidence of anti-tiara voting. Ruri and Kanade shared similar trait and a voice actor to boot, so it all came down to one factor. Kanade had a tiara and Ruri doesn’t. If you like both, would you not tend to vote for the one that doesn’t have it? And did we complete mission #1? I would argue no. First off, maglor has already claimed that many voters leave in the regular season and come back for the postseason, so those that left probably never took the time to check out Mashiro, Rikka, or Kuroyukihime and the anime series they represent. The people that stayed probably did, or at least for those three characters. So for them, we completed our mission. But for the people that stopped voting in the regular season and went straight to the postseason, how would you think they would feel if the Tiara semifinals were an exact copy of the Stella semifinals? The conception of that kind of casual voter would be that no anime in 2011 or 2012 are any good to watch, so they wouldn’t even bother watching any of the new anime at that point. An extremely debatable and a no? This is big trouble.
2014. I don’t think we have to explain this, do we? Maglor explained earlier in the thread that many voters stopped voting after Aquamarine 7. Gee… I wonder why. Mikoto is 7-0. Kanade is 7-0. Ruri is 7-0. Everyone else in Stella already has a loss to their name, and at this point, it’s common knowledge that you’re not likely to get the #1 seed if you have more than 1 loss to your name. Don’t forget that at this point, Nova has zero credibility after their lackluster postseason performance in 2013. So of course, people are going to leave. No watching new anime. No getting to know the new contestants. What’s the point if the same three girls dominate over and over again? This left the Nova division to be claimed by the Date A Live voters, who clearly didn’t know any better being that this would arguably be their first year of participating for those voters. Of course, on the Stella side Mikoto, Kanade, and Ruri all go 20-0. In a year where everybody is desperate for new superstars, the past three tiara winners go 20-0. Kanade defeats Ruri in Ruby 7, leaving Kanade and Mikoto to go 34-0 before their inevitable match with each other which Mikoto wins… because Mikoto never went undefeated before. Past history is starting to take precedence over the moe aspect, and the dominance of Mikoto, Kanade, and Ruri left voters hanging. Now, when it comes to the tiara, every single postseason voter knows what he or she has to do. If you want your favorite character to win, and your favorite character isn’t one of the past three champions, you have to vote against the past three champions. It’s your only play. So of course, they are going to be targeted. And with the Date A Live characters already having amassed quite a turnout due to their great (but arguably handed to them on a silver platter) performance in the Nova Division, they were the perfect scapegoats for stopping the big three in their tracks, and they did. Yoshino defeated Mikoto handily in the first round. Kanade drew Ruri in the second round and beat her, but she lost to Itsuka Kotori handily in the semifinals. It’s a Mashiro/Kotori final, but the damage was already done. There was so much hate and cynical downplay in the entire tourney that the finals were a complete afterthought. There was rejoicing that we would have a new tiara winner. There was jealousy because Kanade and Mikoto got shafted. There was negativity everywhere, with the thought that no matter who won the final match, neither of them really deserved it. And all of this stemmed from the mentality that the tiara brought. “It would be great to see someone win a second tiara”. “I don’t think anybody should win a second tiara.” “Those three are terrible for trying to hog all the spotlight!” “Those three are the best Saimoe performers ever to live! One of them just has to win a second tiara, and she can truly be the best Saimoe contestant forever!”

Damn, folks, where did the moe go?

I argue that Itsuka Kotori did not win ISML 2014. I claim that foul play, distrust, unreliability, and negative labeling won ISML 2014. None of the 72 contestants walked out a winner in this one. Mikoto, Kanade, and Ruri, once adored as worthy champions, are now labeled as ruthless tyrants, with no regard for sympathy toward contestants that dreamed of ever touching the tiara. Every single one of the other 33 Stella contestants have been labeled as failures, for not being able to stop the ruthless tyrants from domination, a list that includes 2009 champion Katsura Hinagiku, 2010 champion Akiyama Mio, fellow 2013 semifinalist Eucliwood Hellscythe, and even the perennial competitor Shana, who upset Ruri in Topaz 1 but upset her after Ruri had 2 losses to her name. Every one of the Nova contestants except for the top three Date A Live girls are now labeled nobodies, that is, contestants that would never have a chance to succeed in the Stella division. And the three aforementioned Date A Live girls are labeled scapegoats. They were mere tools, used to prevent the three tyrants from ever completing the quest to win a second tiara. All credibility for the 72 contestants that had the honor to compete this year was all but destroyed.

Did we complete mission #1? Absolutely not. Did we complete mission #2? Absolutely not.

And the worst part of it all is that these failures had nothing to do with the ISML Staff. These failures were the work of the negative cultural mentality that existed all throughout the 2014 season. In other words, the mentality of the majority of voters themselves and the way that they voted caused International Saimoe to become a hypocrite of itself.

This is why the current ISML Executive staff convened to discuss change. And what they have decided, they presented to us, the ISML community. Of course, these changes were met with some brutality. Some people had issue with the new operational changes for the regular season, but by far the biggest issue was the “banning” of Mikoto, Kanade, and Ruri by moving the tiara winners out of the Main Tournament. No, it’s not banning. We’re moving them to a new echelon, a Crystal Castle of Tiara Winners that will convene together to welcome the new 2015 Tiara Champion. They will sit, they will observe, and they will wait for a worthy competitor to come to them. And in the process, we hope that by making these changes, we will be able to complete the mission we all agreed to in 2010. For mission #2, no longer will any match, especially the postseason, will be tainted with the whole Tiara/anti-Tiara mentality that has fostered for the past four years. Matches will return to the winner being more moe than her (and now, his) opponent, without any outside factors in play.

As for mission #1, the ISML staff members hope that new voters will come in and give every contestant in ISML a chance to show them who they are as a character when they watch their respective anime. I like to add a different hope to this. I sincerely hope that the Mikoto fanbase, the Kanade fanbase, and the Kuroneko fanbase do not quit the International Saimoe League because their queen and commander is no longer competing in the Main Tournament. I hope that these three fanbases will take a good hard look at every single contestant in the Stella and Nova divisions, watch every single anime to know each of these contestants, and choose a character that not only is most moe to them, but would also make a very worthy opponent for their respective queens to face, and do whatever it takes to let the character they ultimately choose to win the Tiara and meet their queen face to face. If they do that and succeed, they will have no regrets going forward, and they will be proud of their queen being a member of the Tournament of Champions.

It’s time for the International Saimoe League to return to what it was meant to be, a contest judged not by the number of tiaras one has, but by how moe that he or she is.
Last edited by minhtam1638 on Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by RegalStar » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:42 am

Both of them went on a huge 41-0 run, somehow avoiding each other for such a long time, and if it weren’t for Mikoto being upset by Aisaka Taiga at the end of Ruby, we could have had a huge regular season finale, where 48-0 could have met 48-0. As it stood, it was 48-0 Kanade vs. 47-1 Mikoto, where Kanade had a chance to be undefeated, and she pulled it off.
Mikoto did not get upset by anyone in 2011 in Ruby (much less Taiga who she did not even face in that period), and the DIamond 7 match was 48-0 vs 48-0.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:22 am

RegalStar wrote:Mikoto did not get upset by anyone in 2011 in Ruby (much less Taiga who she did not even face in that period), and the DIamond 7 match was 48-0 vs 48-0.
Aw, dammit, I was thinking of the 2010 Mikoto/Taiga match. Fixed.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:43 am

Started reading this article right after finishing my code, really making my head spin...but I'm done, finally. I've never given a thought to mission #1 before, but now it's engraved in my mind...Only have the strength for one suggestion: Keep using gorgeous avatars for the Nova girls. Sometimes it can have amazing effects especially on the casual voting public (I watched Denpa Onna only because of Erio's avatar...). Good avatars boost mission #1. Ready to shut down my laptop...
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Reverend » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:51 am

Homura wrote:Only have the strength for one suggestion: Keep using gorgeous avatars for the Nova girls. Sometimes it can have amazing effects especially on the casual voting public (I watched Denpa Onna only because of Erio's avatar...). Good avatars boost mission
as somebody who had been a been a follower and after that a silent voter since the day Haruhi had her notorious win streak, I agree on this :)

Most new voters whom have just decided to participate in this tournament probably had just watch 2-8 anime that has representative/s in ISML:
1.This is why cute avatar makes the question about unknown character easier for them: which one is cuter?
2.they need to learn about the other character before they can vote fairly according to their preferences (not just according to their experience)
they need to be enticed to watch other ISML-related anime. What can do this: cute pictures and cute character description in the roster.
3.Point 2 is also the reason why winner poster is so valuable: more cute poster = more interest. That's why in order to give more chance for weaker character, they need to be given an another form to expose their moe-ness, and avatar is a fair option.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:54 am

sup minty I would like to discuss something with you on IRC
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Darth Blitzer » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:22 pm

Okay, late to this party. Many facets already discussed here. So i'll just elaborate my personal uneducated reactions.
Kholdy wrote:Sphire, as much as you think so, from data it's obvious many voters do not treat them equally. This is why they only come to vote for Postseason. I'm not disagreeing with you, since YOU are treating RS and PS equally and that's actually what we want. But unfortunately, many do not.
Anecdotal for sure. But I can at least attest that the reason why I disappear from RS is because even in its much more compact form. I start to lose interest and stray. The job of a round robin to properly affirm a characters strength, and it's very easy for voters just to see out aquamarine, conclude a general idea of where everyone is this year, and check out. "GG, regroup next post-season/pre-season". Of course, statistics may give a much clearer picture that people supporting losing characters abandon the tournament.......... but it's just hard for me to see this changing much. Of course it will freshen things up a bit by removing a few strong characters, but you're still going to have winners, losers, and some semblance of stagnation. I mean if the RS was total anarchy, it really wouldn't be serving its job as a fairly consistent approximation of strength.

I of course think RS is interesting to look back at statistically, to compile W-L charts and compare power in retrospect. But seeing it out in real time just isn't all that fun, regardless of if it's Kanade, Shana, or Future mystery powerful character without a tiara #1. That being said. If you guys are statistically sure that these steps are completely necessary to ensure this. --->
maglor wrote: This lack of diversity in voter base is partly responsible for what appeared to be faction manipulations during PS I and PS II. It may also be responsible for the last three necklace match results. While many people dislike the concept of diversity, in ISML, diversity is essential to prevent a select few faction groups being able to manipulate the results against the wish of the majority. Diversity of voter helps prevent any faction manipulation attempt to have disproportionately large effect, and it also allows ISML to weather ebbs and tides of myriads of things that can happen during its long schedule.
Then go ahead. You'll find no major opposition from me. As someone who has always been personally concerned about the fallout that factions, stagnation or the worst case scenario, a repeat winner would have on the tournament. Measures taken to avoid a scenario of narrowed interests amongst the voter base are something I would support.

Of course, I should add a caveat, since 10ZHAbin mentioned the weak entries into the 2012 season. Back in 2012 I certainly recall being quite concerned for the future of the tournament. It seemed the voter base had stagnated. All the new characters were so paltry compared to the previous years! Were we destined to deal with some form of tournament endless eights hell? Of course, I don't recall if it dawned on me at the time or if it was during the 2013 pre-season........ the possibility that 2012 was just a weak year and we weren't guaranteed to have 2010/2011 style major breakthroughs every year. There was no need to despair because it was only a one off thing. 2013/2014 saw much stronger entries and while Stella may seem stagnant because Kanade/Mikoto, we saw a fairly decent rearrangement of Stella this year. As I mentioned in a thread about old ISML veterans earlier this year
Darth Blitzer wrote:Pretty impressed with the necessary house cleaning of Stella this year. Clannad was a vestigial power, C.C./Holo/Louise were never really all that successful in the first place and just continued to hang on. Konata's 2013 participation could be described as "Why are you even here?".
That brings me to this change. I wouldn't want us to majorly change up the tournament based on the evidence of one season at this point. As i'm not completely sold that this is evidence that ISML 2018 is going to be a dystopian future where three factions completely control the tournament and have driven everyone off. Concerns about factions in the tournament are certainly nothing new, and the assessments over the years have ranged from "correct but probably exaggerated" to "insane tinfoil hat conspiracy"..... and while Maglor's post about desertion is certainly concerning. I feel like I need another season of evidence. Particularly since this year saw the addition of the voting captcha's alongside the timer.


As for the substance of the changes. I'm partial to letting characters who have won tiara's participate in the regular season and barring them from the post-season. Since I personally abhor the idea of a repeat champion (We seriously don't need to reaffirm what we all already agreed on. That's just a pointless repetitive circlejerk), and I want to preserve MUH STATS from the regular season. As distorted as comparisons may already be thanks to all the changes that regular season has undergone over the years.

With that said. I do understand that not barring them from regular season doesn't make sense if the concern is precisely voters being driven off during that time period.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Sphire » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:27 pm

@minhtam

I don't think I'll quote you because it'll be a long line, but I'll try to bring across some of my thoughts with regards to how things have been developing. I kinda assumed things were already set, but I do appreciate the staff taking all kinds of input on board.

I think the point about change is always debatable. Is change good? Sometimes, sure, but even now we've heard the staff saying there should be minimal changes in future ISML. So obviously change isn't necessary, just there when you think if should be done. I mean, change is liable to be bad too, JAST and KBM are perfect examples of that. I don't think one can strongly argue that 'change' has to happen, and I guess I'm not really convinced in this aspect. I can understand it, but I don't think it's the staff's problem to overcome I guess.

I can fully respect the primary missions of ISML. Wanting to get people to watch more shows is laudable (though I'd personally 'de-recommend' some top ISML series...), but while mission 1 and 2 are of separate importance, I don't think they have to or should be fighting between each other (I hope that makes sense). I read your points and they're all mostly for helping people to watch 'new' series, but what about old ones? Don't we want 'new' anime viewers to see what old shows have strong followers so that they might check those shows out? Removing Kanade, Mikoto and Kuroneko from most of the year will likely deminish their respective series' strength, and that isn't really protecting Mission 1. Granted, you of course have ToC, but if we're treating that as some side exhibition, is that of any real notice? (I personally prefer it being an exhibition IF we stick to the whole removal of Tiara bearers thing). The ToC isn't really going to be that competitive outside of Kanade, Mikoto and the latest Tiara winner either.

It's not like removing the Tiara bearers increases new show participation either. Their removal is from Stella, so it does nothing for Nova qualifications and just dilutes Stella's strength. More could be done to increase support for new series' too, like limiting how many participants a series can bring into ISML. I mean, does DAL's and Chuu2koi's domination of Nova with a total of 9 characters total (almost a third of Nova) really help shine a light on the hundreds of anime that come out in a given year? Especially when they dominate Nova too? We don't limit series participation though, probably because it isn't fair, even if it hurts Mission 1 (I think it does at least). Is blocking a repeat Tiara winner fair?

I was here back in 2011 when the dual divison idea was introduced. I didn't like it then, not because I was against change, but mostly because it diluted the leagues strength. It also separated characters for too long I felt. Case in point, I don't think Yuki Asuna has ever fought Misaka Mikoto or Tachibana Kanade 1 v 1. And she likely never will at this rate. How sad is that? Plus, really, only with a new season would she be able to compete against Stella, meaning most Nova's enter Stella at a disadvantage anyway, given they aren't at their strongest anymore without new material. This year, only 2 new Stella characters entered the top 16. And one of those was Mashiro (ie entered a year early). I do however like the uncertainty that having 2 divisions provides in terms of PS2 results.

Anyway, I think ISML is always fighting an uphill battle with regards to Mission 2. To begin with, you can't even say any Tiara winner is the Best Moe girl of a particular year, but more accurately is the Most Popular Moe girl of that year. So many good moe characters get ignored because of popularity problems. Not much we can do about that, but it's there. And I said this before, but I think the staff are taking the complaints of negative people way too seriously. So there are people that think Kotori is an undeserved champion, but that's only because of jealousy and hate. If they were actually a fan of Kotori, they'd be ecstatic. No one can win just on core strength, they need the neutral votes. And neutral voters are volatile, you control one aspect (anti-Tiara mentality), they'll just find another. Flipping a coin isn't any better is it? You aren't even getting rid of the notion that Kanade and Mikoto are being shafted, it'll still be there. And we haven't even touched upon VA fans.

The jealousy and hate will always be there. We've never had a repeat Tiara winner. We've also never had a series produce 2 Tiara winners. I have no doubt that come PS 2015, there will be people anti-voting DAL characters not named Kotori because a DAL rep has already won the Tiara. Would this be any better than anti-tiara voting? No it isn't, but there just isn't much you can do about it. So, so many times this year Kurumi fans downplayed the strength of other characters that beat Kurumi during RS and part of PS. So many times they felt 'shafted' and that the results weren't 'fair'. Is their sentiment any less valid than the anti-tiara hate/jealousy? Or do we restructure ISML to fit their needs too?

I think it is wholly unfair to claim as fact that Mission 1 and 2 were not met this year. You can't. One can EASILY argue we did achieve both goals this year. Then what? It's just one opinion vs another.

I dunno, I feel with your arguments, we might as well just ban Stella altogether, since there also is a pro-Stella group and a pro-Nova group. Or just have Nova contest the Tiara, while Stella can play around in RS and in necklace matches. Make it so that Nova incorporates anime from the past 2 years so that Asuna, possibly the only strong new Stella next year, can play for the Tiara. Stella will just be a battleground for oldies but goodies, allowing them to showcase their anime.

Ah, I'm not sure if any of this came out well. Minhtam's points were long and so are mine, so I may have not written this very well.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Vella » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:31 pm

I've never thought of quit ISML in this way.
Yeah, I won't watch an anime because I see a character in ISML. If I think it worth watching, I'll have watched it when it put out. If not, I won't watch it just because "oh, she is so strong in saimoe, the anime must be attractive! I need to watch it!"
Right, I'm a core voter, I just vote for my favourite contestants, including Kuroneko.
To me, ISML is just a competition, a battlefield in which Goko Ruri try to win matches, or Nyarlathotep try not to lose matches. We fight against the best characters. Cheers or tears, we win what we desire. I have said earlier in forum, that if Tachibana Kanade had been banned in 2013, anything won by Kuroneko would be meaningless. We just want a best moe of all girls, not a best moe of all but Angel.
You staff hate us.
"They just come here for who they love, these f*cking ACR fans! They'll always love and vote for their goddess! Even in 2021! There are no room for other characters to beat them down in normal way! The only way to push them out is to ban ACR! They can learn to vote for others, otherwise they just GTFO!"
Well, though I said "our league" in this forum, I have never fergotten that this is your league, not ours. Every house owner will put efforts in choosing what he wants into his house. If you don't want to see me anymore, I'll leave here discreetly.
footnote: ACR = angel & cat & railgun

P.S. What do you think of this, kholdy?
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by RegalStar » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:58 pm

Then may you should leave discreetly instead of still posting.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Vella » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:15 pm

Oh, I'm so sorry to pollute you eyes.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by RegalStar » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:20 pm

Apology accepted.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Frankshana » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:54 pm

Unfair... What about the characters been beaten by Mikoto or Kanade ?They would have much more chances to get a necklace,even to be the champion,if champions are already banned to attend the matches.Previous Champions like Mikoto have gained several prizes these years ...While Kotori doesn't even have a chance to get a necklace?Should't she have a chance to gain the same prizes as Mikoto and Kanade? Up,Unfair to contestants beaten by previous champions...unfair to Kotori and all Champions in future.
My opinion is that champions may not take part in championship matches(forgotten what it was called),but may attend all other matches they used to be allowed to take part in.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Frankshana » Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:15 pm

Previous champions such as Mikoto and Kanade have many posters in winner's gallery while Kotori and champions in the furure doesn't even have a chance to get another?
Unacceptable
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:30 pm

Before I respond to Sphire, let me be perfectly clear so that everybody understands. Commissioner Crisu owns the International Saimoe League. Not me. It's his house, it's his site, it's his show. Everything that he says or does is final. I am but a mere poster, just like every single one of you. I don't like it when people put me on a high pedestal because I am "the founder of the International Saimoe League." This implies that I am more important than Commissioner Crisu, of which I am not. I have not been part of the ISML Staff since 2011, so please do not treat me as someone of a higher status than you are.

@Sphire, you bring up excellent points, and I love that you're thinking this too. I find your points very interesting and I would like to respond to them.
Sphire wrote:I think the point about change is always debatable. Is change good? Sometimes, sure, but even now we've heard the staff saying there should be minimal changes in future ISML. So obviously change isn't necessary, just there when you think if should be done. I mean, change is liable to be bad too, JAST and KBM are perfect examples of that. I don't think one can strongly argue that 'change' has to happen, and I guess I'm not really convinced in this aspect. I can understand it, but I don't think it's the staff's problem to overcome I guess.
This is absolutely true. I used my life experience to validate the point that change is necessary, but life experiences are unique to each and every human being. And yes, change is a risk. But if one isn't happy with where he or she is right now, one has to take a risk. I think if the ISML Staff was happy with how ISML 2014 went, of course there would be change to improve the ISML experience, but those changes would be minimal.
Sphire wrote:I can fully respect the primary missions of ISML. Wanting to get people to watch more shows is laudable (though I'd personally 'de-recommend' some top ISML series...), but while mission 1 and 2 are of separate importance, I don't think they have to or should be fighting between each other (I hope that makes sense). I read your points and they're all mostly for helping people to watch 'new' series, but what about old ones? Don't we want 'new' anime viewers to see what old shows have strong followers so that they might check those shows out? Removing Kanade, Mikoto and Kuroneko from most of the year will likely deminish their respective series' strength, and that isn't really protecting Mission 1. Granted, you of course have ToC, but if we're treating that as some side exhibition, is that of any real notice? (I personally prefer it being an exhibition IF we stick to the whole removal of Tiara bearers thing). The ToC isn't really going to be that competitive outside of Kanade, Mikoto and the latest Tiara winner either.
Absolutely, which is why the Stella Division continues to exist in the first place. But there is a weakness in that line of reasoning. This only works for new voters that come in to participate in their first few years of International Saimoe. They'll come in, see the Stella and Nova divisions, and having assumed the voter just got into anime and currently watches all the anime in Nova, he/she will give the Stella anime a chance. A dedicated voter will come in and take the time to watch every single anime that is being featured in the Main Tournament. That's what we want. However, we know that time keeps ticking. It takes a great amount of time to watch all of the anime being featured. So the casual voter who knows nothing about anime would probably take the time to watch the contestants at the top first, and would probably not finish in time for the Postseason.

I understand that the ISML Staff do not see the domination of past champions as an issue. Their role in this is to try to solve the anti-Tiara vs. double-Tiara voting mentality that has long diverted the votes away from the "who is more moe." But I believe that if it were Mashiro, Eucliwood, and Ayase that started 20-0 in Stella and not the previous three champions, I don't think any of this mess in this past month would have ever happened.
Sphire wrote:I was here back in 2011 when the dual divison idea was introduced. I didn't like it then, not because I was against change, but mostly because it diluted the leagues strength. It also separated characters for too long I felt. Case in point, I don't think Yuki Asuna has ever fought Misaka Mikoto or Tachibana Kanade 1 v 1. And she likely never will at this rate. How sad is that? Plus, really, only with a new season would she be able to compete against Stella, meaning most Nova's enter Stella at a disadvantage anyway, given they aren't at their strongest anymore without new material. This year, only 2 new Stella characters entered the top 16. And one of those was Mashiro (ie entered a year early). I do however like the uncertainty that having 2 divisions provides in terms of PS2 results.
That's a very strong case to let the tiara winners play in the RS. I 100% like it, but I can't do anything about it. Go talk to Kholdy about that.
Sphire wrote:Anyway, I think ISML is always fighting an uphill battle with regards to Mission 2. To begin with, you can't even say any Tiara winner is the Best Moe girl of a particular year, but more accurately is the Most Popular Moe girl of that year. So many good moe characters get ignored because of popularity problems. Not much we can do about that, but it's there. And I said this before, but I think the staff are taking the complaints of negative people way too seriously. So there are people that think Kotori is an undeserved champion, but that's only because of jealousy and hate. If they were actually a fan of Kotori, they'd be ecstatic. No one can win just on core strength, they need the neutral votes. And neutral voters are volatile, you control one aspect (anti-Tiara mentality), they'll just find another. Flipping a coin isn't any better is it? You aren't even getting rid of the notion that Kanade and Mikoto are being shafted, it'll still be there. And we haven't even touched upon VA fans.

The jealousy and hate will always be there. We've never had a repeat Tiara winner. We've also never had a series produce 2 Tiara winners. I have no doubt that come PS 2015, there will be people anti-voting DAL characters not named Kotori because a DAL rep has already won the Tiara. Would this be any better than anti-tiara voting? No it isn't, but there just isn't much you can do about it. So, so many times this year Kurumi fans downplayed the strength of other characters that beat Kurumi during RS and part of PS. So many times they felt 'shafted' and that the results weren't 'fair'. Is their sentiment any less valid than the anti-tiara hate/jealousy? Or do we restructure ISML to fit their needs too?
Also very valid points. However, I will argue the following. Say a friend of yours is on the fence about this whole Saimoe thing, and you're a regular ISML voter. So you recommend ISML to her and she gives it a try. Then she votes again, and again, and suddenly she decides she likes it. So she wants to talk about it with somebody. Assuming you're not available on the phone, she's going to try to find someone online to talk to. There's a "Community" tab on the website. She's going to find the forum boards. And when what she reads what she finds in the forum is so cynical and pessimistic about what the results end up being, where comments that talk about anti-Tiara voting and hate voting and the whole "Oh, she's undefeated. What else is new?" type of deal, would she want to come back next year?

The deal with negative comments is that they do not only affect the way a voter votes. It also affects whether a potential new voter is even willing to vote. If we want to attract new voters to participate, then the community itself has to help us with that by having positive comments all around, and anti-tiara voting, double-tiara voting, and, most importantly, resentment to this type voting do not have a positive connotation to them. Negativity will hurt the league in the long run, so it has to be solved somehow. What the ISML Staff came up with was a solution to solve this, and it's not a solution that I am opposed to.
Sphire wrote:I think it is wholly unfair to claim as fact that Mission 1 and 2 were not met this year. You can't. One can EASILY argue we did achieve both goals this year. Then what? It's just one opinion vs another.
I agree with you on Mission 1. We can easily argue that several anime titles received great exposure this year and that enticed some of the voters to check out their titles. But the reason I think we failed Mission 1 is because if there is negativity surrounding anything International Saimoe, it may force a casual voter to not only quit International Saimoe, but also quit anime altogether. Certainly, negative comments that discredit the credibility of our contestants will not encourage voters to check out their titles. Again, it is a matter of opinion, and we can talk about this all we want to. However, the Staff claimed themselves that anti-tiara voting and double-tiara voting are contradictory to Mission #2, right on the first page. It's not me that decides if ISML failed on its mission. It's the staff that decides whether ISML succeeded of failed in its mission, so what really matters is what they think, and what they can do to correct course, if course needs to be corrected.
Sphire wrote:I dunno, I feel with your arguments, we might as well just ban Stella altogether, since there also is a pro-Stella group and a pro-Nova group. Or just have Nova contest the Tiara, while Stella can play around in RS and in necklace matches. Make it so that Nova incorporates anime from the past 2 years so that Asuna, possibly the only strong new Stella next year, can play for the Tiara. Stella will just be a battleground for oldies but goodies, allowing them to showcase their anime.
You know what? Maybe that has to be addressed too.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:36 pm

minhtam1638 wrote:That's a very strong case to let the tiara winners play in the RS. I 100% like it, but I can't do anything about it. Go talk to Kholdy about that.
Not all everything is black and white and not all change are 100% beneficial. There will need to be sacrifices, and very rare cases like this happening is entirely worth it for diversity.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by clannad » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:07 pm

Ok I'll talk something about it after I seen what minhtam wrote down.
I almost agree with the conclusion that we didn't reach our term 1/2's goal in recent 1-2 years.

But all the reasons have a seriously logical problem. If one character keep a strong strength, thats just due to their animation have a wider spread; they have more fans and fans devote more on their character on this game. More people choose them because they do approve that girl more. If you want to blame you should blame why there are no new strong girls and good animations appear that accepted by voters in recent years. If one girl is strong then she is strong. Let the stronger in charge of the responsibility for the weaker is totally wrong in logic.

Even if we choose a girl from an animation with less reputation get the tiara, will that change the situation? Definitely some more people will watch it. But don't forget:
1. If we want to recommend animations to a newcomer for ISML and ACG, I don't think "Toaru Majutsu no Index" or "Angel Beats!" is a worse choice than that new animation, if mikoto or kanade get the tiara again.
2. If we want to recommend animations to a veteran in ACG, probably they have already watched those animation. If they still choose mikoto or kanade, thats means they already considered it after comparison. Even you choose a new tiara, it won't change their mind.

So it's very good for thought of that change BUT it's not an effective way to archive it. It's totally an unreliable method.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by clannad » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:14 pm

In other simplest words conclusion:
" Some people participate this game only for mikoto\kanade\gokō ruri\Taiga or those they loved famous characters.
some other people strongly dislike this situation in this years and want their loved weaker characters win more in RS or even be able to enter RS"
No matter what way we choose, we will lost a part of group people.

If we keep those former tiara winners in RS, definitely they will occupy some positions. 80-90% fans of those character who lose that position in RS will leave.
If we ban those winners, maybe 60% of their fans will leave.
Hmm...that's the problem
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