ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Bastion » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:56 pm

minhtam1638 wrote:...
I read the whole thing, minus the spoilers, despite my monitor being horrible for reading purposes right now (which is why I skipped those), and I have yet to find anything resembling a counter-argument to my proposed functioning of the TOC and it's sub-tournament.

These two tournaments, while just enforcing #2 in the main (reshowing contestant winners in special showings) would allow for more exhibition matches, which supports #1, and keeps interest in those voters who stuck around for the matches to see the characters of less-popular shows appear and possibly create interest.

I do recognize the overflow of certain series' causing domination and diluting the effect of #1, but I can't think of any reasonable suggestion to pare that down. Cutting down on the possible participants would be reducing the effect of #2, and thus is not recommended.

Having the TOC and it's tournament increases possible interest in the show. "Hey, this show got a member through to get into the Grand Tournament, I should put that one higher on my list of 'shows to watch'."
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:13 pm

Bastion wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:...
I read the whole thing, minus the spoilers, despite my monitor being horrible for reading purposes right now (which is why I skipped those), and I have yet to find anything resembling a counter-argument to my proposed functioning of the TOC and it's sub-tournament.
That's because I wasn't against your proposed functioning of the ToC and it's sub-tournament at all (regardless of the fact that I do agree with Kholdy - a non-tiara winner could get to the ToC and be stuck there for the next 8 years). My point was that too many people around here focus so much on the "moe" aspect of International Saimoe that they overlook the big picture - "moe" is what distinguishes us from any other anime website, but it isn't everything that we're about. That's all.

EDIT: forgot a quotation mark
Last edited by minhtam1638 on Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Bastion » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:27 pm

minhtam1638 wrote:That's because I wasn't against your proposed functioning of the ToC and it's sub-tournament at all (regardless of the fact that I do agree with Kholdy - a non-tiara winner could get to the ToC and be stuck there for the next 8 years). My point was that too many people around here focus so much on the "moe" aspect of International Saimoe that they overlook the big picture - that the "moe" part isn't everything that we're about. That's all.
Ok, it'd just seemed like the argument was against the ideas basis.
The reason I was recommended to re post, and the reason I originally posted it, was because it seemed that the TOC was a 'done deal' and I was just presenting ideas of how to make sure it works.
Even though I didn't realize the expansion of what is watched was part of the thinking, it was paramount in my planning of the sub-tournament. I want more anime exposed, I'm one of those people that tend to like the shows that go all-but-unnoticed. ISML actually 'tells' me what mainstream anime to watch.

I think that, by the process, someone would have to struggle to get 'restricted' for the first year, and then in following years they would have to continue to struggle to maintain that status starting the very next year, fighting against others who attained the high level of prestige and allowing other characters who might have gone unnoticed to thrive.
Possibly two characters could be knocked out each year, if the winner of 2015 doesn't keep their power steady, they could be knocked out in 2016, making them eligible for returning to the normal sequence of things in 2017 (though, if they got knocked out that quickly, it's unlikely).

If Hinagiku had gotten the tiara while this was around, given the facts we have of her performance now, would she have stood in that circle for her eight years?

I may not be part of the staff officially, but I try to function as one and take that perspective when I bring things up like this.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:01 am

clannad wrote:Even if we choose a girl from an animation with less reputation get the tiara, will that change the situation? Definitely some more people will watch it. But don't forget:
1. If we want to recommend animations to a newcomer for ISML and ACG, I don't think "Toaru Majutsu no Index" or "Angel Beats!" is a worse choice than that new animation, if mikoto or kanade get the tiara again.
2. If we want to recommend animations to a veteran in ACG, probably they have already watched those animation. If they still choose mikoto or kanade, thats means they already considered it after comparison. Even you choose a new tiara, it won't change their mind.

So it's very good for thought of that change BUT it's not an effective way to archive it. It's totally an unreliable method.
But in the perspective of Mission #1, your argument is redundant, because ever since Comissioner Crisu took over in 2010, every single champion was featured on the main page of the website. So if we were recommending animations to an ISML newcomer, we could start them off with the champions. In fact, I would like to think that any newcomer to ISML would probably start off with the champions anyway, since they are on the main page. So in terms of advertising To aru Majutsu no Index, Angel Beats, or Ore no Imouto, those series are already covered with Mikoto, Kanade, and Ruri immortalized on the main page. Of course, if those three champions went undefeated for 20 straight matches and everybody else had a loss, people would think that the rest of Stella isn't at their level, which would discourage them from watching any other Stella series. And that hurts the rest of the Stella contestants.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:06 am

Homura wrote:Should I call you an idealist? If your goal is to bring voting BACK to being moe-oriented, I sadly say that this dream will never come true. The nature of human beings will keep make the matches "dirty", and never stop.
Kholdy wrote:Yes, you can call me an idealist, but I will strive to keep ISML as close to "moe" as possible.
Sphire wrote:The jealousy and hate will always be there... ...
I hope my quotes can make you feel a bit better on this whole issue. Both you and me are arguing something that is perfectly right, but that argument doesn't really do anything for this whole issue. We're rambling on the fact. The negative mentality will always be there, true; but next year one of its major forms, the anti-Tiara vs. double-Tiara voting mentality will disappear. Sacrifice a few characters for the sake of striving to keep ISML as close to "moe" as possible —— NOT a bad deal.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:10 am

I really don't want to be saying this directly, so I'll say this as a personal opinion and not a staff statement. A tournament that is more moe-focused but with less voters is much more valuable and credible in my eyes than what we have now.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Homura » Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:18 am

I like big event...
Bastion wrote:ISML actually 'tells' me what mainstream anime to watch.
Blame Japanese anime industry. A casual voter came and voted in 2010, he/she was recommended K-On!; while 2014 the anime first catching his/her eyes was DAL.

Furthermore, I have one suggestion. Would it be appropriate that we create a "fun facts" section right above the timer in the voting page? It would be made of one or two sentences talking about interesting anime facts. For instance, "Toaru Majutsu no Index is by far the only Japanese light novel series having been sold over 10 million copies worldwide". Actually, I think what ISML can do for mission 1 right now is pretty limited, so I came up with this idea that could help voters learn more and watch/read more. And it also helps kill the 180s waiting time.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by clannad » Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:39 am

"more moe-focused" ...ahahaha

How do you define "moe". What you believed "moe" maybe not like by others.
I don't want to tell the truth too: "The history always written by the winners". Only the champion will be remembered. Who cares how Nanoha\Suiseiseki\Rika win the 2005-2007 JMT. Who knows what strategies and methods they used.
How people can define they "moe" or not. People only know they are champions because who won the game who is the "moest girl"
You think doing the above then the match become more moe-focused? Too simply too naive. ahahaha

In my points, the game is 100% battle and 0% moe. Every sponsor wants to make a "moe" game but nobody success because the voters never care about that. You never seen how people played in the JMT. They can focus on screens for 24 hours with no sleeping and eating, just for gain a few more tickets. It even became a real-life battle only for a few exchanged tickets in different groups, as they may cost $5-10K for one year's JMT; and you never seen how fierce on the comments and psywar on Chinese website's posts when an important lv1 match in ISML. You think setting up some rules will solve this problem? Too unrealistic.

There's a lot of "battle" in the game since 2002 Kinomoto won against Osaka. For the Japanese and Chinese voters, battle against the opponent's people is all the meaning for a "moe" vote game. It's has been last over a decade
Definitely the sponsors can decide how the games are look like. I know some other vote-game's sponsors only focus on if they can archive their own goals when set up the game. They don't care how the game will be or how people evaluate the game. Totally no problem. Some other sponsors are just aiming at building a game that voter's like. They don't have their own goals. I don't comment on these different ways. If ISML want to do as the first way, I won't say anything more.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:46 am

I know many people don't think saimoe can ever become about purely moe, and I agree. However, that doesn't mean we can't try, no matter how hard it is. You only fail when you stop trying.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by clannad » Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:47 am

The two different camps for "moe" and "battle" have never thaw each other over this 10 years. I am on the side that "who wins who is the moest" This kind of vote-game is only a battle between people. So for the games I operated, I only set up some basic and pure fair rules then I'm done. All the rest is watching how people against each other until one character win out.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by clannad » Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:54 am

Kholdy wrote:I know many people don't think saimoe can ever become about purely moe, and I agree. However, that doesn't mean we can't try, no matter how hard it is. You only fail when you stop trying.
Hmm let me think how to say...
I ... I don't mean this game cannot be pure moe. I just have a totally different point.
Because I think "moe" cannot be defined. As no standards for a concept, this game will only be a battle that people use for against each other.
Under this circumstance, It's not a thing that we try or not. Because even if we tried, we still cannot evaluate whether it's succeed or not.
Then the most available method is leaving it to all voters. Just let them to decide how the game and the winners will be.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:54 am

If that's how you view saimoe, then you'll never get swayed by our arguments, and we'll never be swayed by yours. ISML will stay true to its principles.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by clannad » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:04 am

Kholdy wrote:If that's how you view saimoe, then you'll never get swayed by our arguments, and we'll never be swayed by yours. ISML will stay true to its principles.
It's not my view but what indeed happened in these years saimoe game. Don't you admitted that all these years JMT and recent years ISML were full of these atmosphere? The sponsors have an ideal goal every year. But who decide how the game will be is by the voters. Then if the sponsors want to force the game to back to it's track, it will only annoyed those voters if the two ways are different. That's how JMT is in decline now.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:11 am

Yes, clannad, it's a game, filled with strategy and mass execution. We throw it out there, and of course two or three groups of people are going to find ways to win. But that's actually fine. There isn't a problem with that, as the best will rise up. What is not fine is the talk of resentment and hatred between not only the winning and losing factions but also the bystanders that are appalled by what they see. It's like two kids playing a fighting video game that they both love, but then get into a real fight because one thought the other cheated. People get hurt. And we're not in the business to start an internet war. Don't forget that we have a Mission 3: We are to maintain a social network of anime enthusiasts. You can't maintain a social network off of flaming and pure hatred, and it certainly will not help our cause if voters and posters make negative accusations toward certain champions, which would cause those champions' fans to retaliate in return.

None of this would have happened if nobody brought the issue up. If the results of the Kanade/Kotori match were met with sportsmanship and respect, that's fine. Even if it weren't, that's sort of ok. But to say that one person won only because the other was anti-voted for winning the tiara before, after the match was said and done? That's a no-no. And this year, talk like this went out of hand.

If you guys and girls are all about "Saimoe Battling", then by all means, trash talk each other all you want before the battle, and then show up and fight during the battle. But after the battle, shake hands and congratulate the winner instead of finding excuses for why you lost. Otherwise, ISML will make radical changes to the game like this.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by XDitto » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:22 am

minhtam1638 wrote:If you guys and girls are all about "Saimoe Battling", then by all means, trash talk each other all you want before the battle, and then show up and fight during the battle. But after the battle, shake hands and congratulate the winner instead of finding excuses for why you lost. Otherwise, ISML will make radical changes to the game like this.
This brought up the topic of the new scoring method. I'm afraid the opposite would happen under the new scoring method, since it seems to encourage manipulation, more so than the SDO manipulation under the current necklace matches...
I argue that Itsuka Kotori did not win ISML 2014. I claim that foul play, distrust, unreliability, and negative labeling won ISML 2014... And the three aforementioned Date A Live girls are labeled scapegoats. They were mere tools, used to prevent the three tyrants from ever completing the quest to win a second tiara. All credibility for the 72 contestants that had the honor to compete this year was all but destroyed.

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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by minhtam1638 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:25 am

XDitto wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:If you guys and girls are all about "Saimoe Battling", then by all means, trash talk each other all you want before the battle, and then show up and fight during the battle. But after the battle, shake hands and congratulate the winner instead of finding excuses for why you lost. Otherwise, ISML will make radical changes to the game like this.
This brought up the topic of the new scoring method. I'm afraid the opposite would happen under the new scoring method, since it seems to encourage manipulation, more so than the SDO manipulation under the current necklace matches...
Well, remember that we are test-driving the new scoring method for 2015. If it doesn't work in the way we think it would, we'll change it back in 2016.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by matchbaby » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:29 am

Just one question,
we vote for who we love or vote for who are the most moe?
I think most of us vote for who we love but not vote for who are the most moe...

Maybe I love someone, even though I dont think she is moe, I will still vote for her.

That's why saimoe conest can never ONLY base on pure moe
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:31 am

XDitto wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:If you guys and girls are all about "Saimoe Battling", then by all means, trash talk each other all you want before the battle, and then show up and fight during the battle. But after the battle, shake hands and congratulate the winner instead of finding excuses for why you lost. Otherwise, ISML will make radical changes to the game like this.
This brought up the topic of the new scoring method. I'm afraid the opposite would happen under the new scoring method, since it seems to encourage manipulation, more so than the SDO manipulation under the current necklace matches...
Like we said before, those two are different things.

Regular Season is desperately in need of voter interest. We want to encourage volatility so more people can vote. As long as the true rank #1-10 are present in postseason, then we do not worry. They cannot be knocked out of the Top 16 via sniping a few matches, this we can be absolutely sure since we used math. Now here comes the important part. The scoring system messes up the seeds. However, this is not a problem due to our new Swiss System in PS1. This system will normalize the chaotic seeds caused by the scoring system for PS2. The scoring system would NOT work if PS1 was just straight single-elimination. Many people worry about the seeding after regular season, but it does not matter at all under if we use Swiss. This is the key point that most of you must understand.

Because of this, there is no downside to our scoring system.

1) It would make Regular Season more exciting.
2) It will mess up the seeds, which are corrected in PS1.

win-win situation
matchbaby wrote:Just one question,
we vote for who we love or vote for who are the most moe?
I think most of us vote for who we love but not vote for who are the most moe...
That's why saimoe conest can never ONLY base on pure moe
No one is disagreeing with you. Read my previous post again.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by XDitto » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:54 am

Kholdy, I feel that you are not exactly responding to my concern. True, the new system will probably not affect the final winner. But what I am talking about is the mentality of voters and the atmosphere of the community. Like Minhtam has said "after the battle, shake hands and congratulate the winner instead of finding excuses for why you lost". I seriously doubt this would happen. When character A loses to B, will supporters by A accepts defeat to B gracefully? Or will they claim that they lose only because C is sniping A? True, individual matches in RS have negligible effect to the final winner, but it is the RS which produce the atmosphere of the community. If in the RS, people are continuously complaining about sniping and being sniped, will they produce a good atmosphere for the community? Even if the PS is completely fair, the bad atmosphere is already firmly established in the RS. I am not mere guessing here. It is entirely foreseeable if you look at the comments during 7th round of each period and see how people ALWAYS find excuses of being sniped. I understand that the RS desperately in need of voter interest, but I just want to point out the potential bad effects the new system would have on the atmosphere of the community.
I argue that Itsuka Kotori did not win ISML 2014. I claim that foul play, distrust, unreliability, and negative labeling won ISML 2014... And the three aforementioned Date A Live girls are labeled scapegoats. They were mere tools, used to prevent the three tyrants from ever completing the quest to win a second tiara. All credibility for the 72 contestants that had the honor to compete this year was all but destroyed.

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Re: ISML 2015 - Tournament of Champions

Post by Chocola » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:06 am

I understand your concern, and this is my response:

At the end of the year, think of it as the Top 16 are going into PS1 "unseeded", where the Swiss System will sort out the true seeds. What this means is that voters will understand it doesn't matter who sniped whom, as long as you're in postseason. Therefore, if our voters are somewhat smart, they will understand that what happened in RS has no consequence in PS1, and instead concentrate on campaigning for PS1. I am counting on our voters to be smart.

tl;dr - Excuses of being sniped does not matter if it doesn't result in anything. Being sniped doesn't give you a lesser ranking, because PS1 Swiss assumes everyone is unseeded. If someone is complaining about being sniped, correct them on their ignorance and move on.
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