ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Kordosa » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:04 pm

Kholdy wrote:
Kordosa wrote:
Kholdy wrote:There are definitely not many characters that are difficult to gauge, but this thread talks about those few - only 2 in fact.

Mitsuka Souji here is who we're talking about. His default stage is definitely male, but what does dominant mean? The entire premise of the anime appears to be how he transforms into a female temporarily. So even if you argue that he started out as a male and probably considers himself male, someone else will argue that there wouldn't be an anime at all if we don't consider his female state. This is kinda what I mean.
Ok, "dominant" was a poor word choice, but what I typed in the parentheses should have explained what I meant, which was the gender the character he/she chiefly identifies with.

I just looked up Souji and the anime. Okay, so what we have here is a male character who basically becomes something akin to a superhero (read: sentai). (The article on TV Tropes for the series even notes that the series is an affectionate parody of the super sentai franchise.) The twist is that Souji's sentai form is that of a female. Okay, then this functions like a sentai version of cross players in MMORPGs (where players of one gender play as characters of the opposite gender), in the sense that Tail Red functions as a superhero avatar for Souji. Given this line of reasoning, I would vote for Souji being put into the Male division.

To draw a comparison, let's say there were a tournament with male and female divisions consisting of all of the ISML forum users. Many of the male forum users use female avatars, but that does not make them female. Instead, they would be put into the male division to reflect their actual genders.
I clearly understood what you meant before. My problem is even if we go with this decision (which btw I agree with), there will be people who argues that the anime wouldn't exist without the premise, which is that he transforms into a female. Also, this means we forever reverse the Senou Natsuru decision and put him in male from now on.
Serious reply: I don't really see how the decision to include Souji in the male division would invalidate the anime's premise. Souji is a male character that transforms into a female "avatar" in the vein of super sentai series. That's all there is to it. As for what you posted about Natsuru, I'm just now realizing the can of worms this issue is. I personally haven't watched Kampfer, so I wouldn't know which gender Natsuru identifies with post-transformation. If not for that detail, I would have fallen back to my earlier stance concerning reversible and irreversible transformations. "Staff discretion" indeed, for these two cases....

Snarky reply: Those that attempt to bullshit about the series premise being lost will probably do so only because they would feel insecure about fapping to a female character who turns out to only be the female form of an actual male character. Also, Natsuru should stay female so I can fap to her.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Chocola » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:15 pm

Well, within the staff there are also disagreements on which division to put them, but that's classified information. So basically we can eat the worms together.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Kordosa » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:23 pm

Kholdy wrote:So basically we can eat the worms together.
But I'm not a Mystia. /shot
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Cirno wrote:*sinister laugh* Winning by only 47 votes is all part of my master plan. Now everyone will think I'm weak when, in fact, I'm the strongest. And then, when they least expect it, I'll strike back and take over the entire ISML. It's foolproof. Hahahaha, I'm such a genius!
Crisu wrote:And, of course, never merge an anti-cookie with a normal cookie. Serious consequence will occur.
shiraoky wrote:I'm always squeeing lol.
Metaler wrote:Seriously, if you're gonna do something badly, then don't bother doing it. It's like when you take a dump: you don't show it to other people specifically because it's shit!
Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by chaosprophet » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:28 pm

On this discussion, letting people decide on nomination can have a few problems. It can result in the character not getting in any of the divisions because of his noms being spread between the two. One possible fix would be to sum his noms in both and it count for that one that got more but that could have the opposite effect of boosting his noms too much as he could be voted twice. Another solution is to do the later but when someone votes for him as both male and female you only count it as one vote when you sum them.

Thinking about characters like that, what about Luna/Sena from Blazblue? Two souls, one male and one female, on the same body.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by maglor » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:12 pm

chaosprophet wrote:On this discussion, letting people decide on nomination can have a few problems. It can result in the character not getting in any of the divisions because of his noms being spread between the two. One possible fix would be to sum his noms in both and it count for that one that got more but that could have the opposite effect of boosting his noms too much as he could be voted twice. Another solution is to do the later but when someone votes for him as both male and female you only count it as one vote when you sum them.

Thinking about characters like that, what about Luna/Sena from Blazblue? Two souls, one male and one female, on the same body.
That would depend on how they appear and how often they appear on the screen.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by RegalStar » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:20 pm

I think that if they have different identities AND different names, we might as well treat them like two separate characters.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Fuijiwara » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:03 pm

RegalStar wrote:I think that if they have different identities AND different names, we might as well treat them like two separate characters.

That is what I said previously but no it gets shut down immediately
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by RailWarrior » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:13 pm

Are you treating Sailor Moon characters as two different people? Or heck, every single magical girl for that matter? Two identities. Two names. (Most of the time.)
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Just » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:50 pm

Haven't read all the posts here, so dunno if someone already raised this point, but maybe we could refer to the Constitution of ISML (for the Female part at least)
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Article III Section 2.
Prior to becoming a Competitor in any ISML-hosted event, every character must be reviewed for eligibility by the Staff. The following minimum qualifications must be satisfied or the character will be deemed ineligible to participate in League events:
1. The character must be female, must possess a female form, in which case only the instances when the character is female shall be considered, or must regularly exhibit feminine qualities when the character's gender is unknown or cannot be determined.
2. The character must possess both a humanoid appearance and anthropomorphic qualities.
3. The character must have a name or a universal means of identification.
4. The character must appear in a product that is published and distributed in Japanese media and is not rated 18+ or classified as pornographic.
5. The character must either appear in the production on a regular basis or have individual significance to the series’ storyline.
6. Sufficient information and promotional material regarding the character must be readily accessible to the public and the Staff.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Reverend » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:42 pm

RailWarrior wrote:Are you treating Sailor Moon characters as two different people? Or heck, every single magical girl for that matter? Two identities. Two names. (Most of the time.)
Well, considering that these two-persons-same-entity are often known as a different entity by non-character, I say it's fine
(example: Only his friends know Souji, but those that do not know Souji is Tail Red thinks Tail Red is a different person, and will think of her as her and him as him)

That's why, I say:
if people want to nominate for 2 persons that are known as 2 different entities by most people in the setting they are in, but actually they are the same entity, it's fine
(of course: we should constantly remind them that to vote for both uses two votes, and each identity is on his/her own)

The main problem in allowing one same contestant to participate in two different-gender division in the same year is the fear that it will affect judgement of voters
(the statement that Kholdy made in first page)

hmm...
maybe it's time to decide: which gender will come first if this type of case occur...
to decide this now is better than to use jurisprudence
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but of course, should you guys decide to use jurisprudence, it's fine... since Natsuru's case is the same as Souji.
The only part that makes it seem different is there is a "legitimate" division for male, although after I think it again: legit or not legit does not hurt at all
voters come when it gets interesting, voters go when it gets boring, that is the law here, isn't it?
am quoting this as reference
(Thank you, Just, for saving me the work of opening the page just to copy it ;) )
Article III Section 2 wrote: Prior to becoming a Competitor in any ISML-hosted event, every character must be reviewed for eligibility by the Staff. The following minimum qualifications must be satisfied or the character will be deemed ineligible to participate in League events:
1. The character must be female, must possess a female form, in which case only the instances when the character is female shall be considered, or must regularly exhibit feminine qualities when the character's gender is unknown or cannot be determined.
2. The character must possess both a humanoid appearance and anthropomorphic qualities.
3. The character must have a name or a universal means of identification.
4. The character must appear in a product that is published and distributed in Japanese media and is not rated 18+ or classified as pornographic.
5. The character must either appear in the production on a regular basis or have individual significance to the series’ storyline.
6. Sufficient information and promotional material regarding the character must be readily accessible to the public and the Staff.
btw, I think there should be an "and" or "or" in point 1, between "must be female, must possess a female form"
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Bastion » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:26 pm

RailWarrior wrote:Are you treating Sailor Moon characters as two different people? Two identities. Two names. (Most of the time.)
Actually all of the scouts have at least three identities. Normal, Scout and Princess, though only two of them actually have access to the 'princess' form, Moons actually has four during SuperS. I'm not sure, but I think some of those who know, call the Sailor by their human name.
The villains have similar identities in the first season, and some of them do during the Dark Circus arc.
yes, before I followed Hayate, I tried to know a lot about Sailor Moon. That's why I think it was my first anime.

I believe nominations for Ami/Mercury were counted together when they came in previous years.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by progheal » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:32 pm

RailWarrior wrote:
Kordosa wrote:To draw a comparison, let's say there were a tournament with male and female divisions consisting of all of the ISML forum users. Many of the male forum users use female avatars, but that does not make them female. Instead, they would be put into the male division to reflect their actual genders.
Going by the "avatar" logic, the biggest problem probably wouldn't be Souji but rather a different character from a different series also currently airing:
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Tetora from Log Horizon
Don't take the avatar metaphor too literally. In fact, in this case that character isn't a problem even under this logic.
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You treat their current status as acting behind an avatar, while it is not even the case in the beginning. (The catchphrase on the end of episodes of the first half of season 1 states "This is our reality.") True, Tetora is male IRL, but what's that "IRL" mean in this series?
As another example, where would you put Roe2 in? If you put Roe2 in female division (which shouldn't be a problem at all IMHO), then for the same reason Tetora goes to female division as well.
What Kordosa wants to say here is that: when in doubt, you need to "ask" the character what he/she think of him/herself.

And that is also my opinion on this problem.
As a person who had watched both series, I will put both Natsuru and Souji in male division. The plot in both stories have them identify themselves as male while possessing a female body. You wouldn't have put Taichi Yaegashi into female division even if Kokoro Connect had only aired the first five episodes (ie. the body-swapping story arc); the same reason goes here too.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by minhtam1638 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:02 am

Reverend, I already talked to the staff about Article III, Section 2, Subsection 1 about three weeks ago. They've already confirmed that this part of the Constitution will be amended, so don't worry about females or female forms.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by RailWarrior » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:48 am

progheal wrote:What Kordosa wants to say here is that: when in doubt, you need to "ask" the character what he/she think of him/herself.
That's the problem. What does s/he think of him/herself?
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The Roe2 analogy doesn't hold. The consciousness behind Tetora is male. The consciousness behind Roe2 is female; she's her own person; it's not Shiroe controlling her. Tetora is literally in no different a situation from Tailred.
An exception for one makes no sense if it's not applied to the other.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Chocola » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:49 am

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding us. The staff knows that Natsuru and Souji are both males. We want to make a rule that puts them in the male division so that everyone who follows the rule will arrive to our conclusion. In short, we don't want to simple label the rule as "staff discretion" and instead we have to make a well-worded clause that everyone can agree with.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Reverend » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:07 am

minhtam1638 wrote:Reverend, I already talked to the staff about Article III, Section 2, Subsection 1 about three weeks ago. They've already confirmed that this part of the Constitution will be amended, so don't worry about females or female forms.
okay :bigsmile:
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by progheal » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:32 am

RailWarrior wrote:
progheal wrote:What Kordosa wants to say here is that: when in doubt, you need to "ask" the character what he/she think of him/herself.
That's the problem. What does s/he think of him/herself?
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The Roe2 analogy doesn't hold. The consciousness behind Tetora is male. The consciousness behind Roe2 is female; she's her own person; it's not Shiroe controlling her. Tetora is literally in no different a situation from Tailred.
An exception for one makes no sense if it's not applied to the other.
After some serious thought, I'd say that in this case we needs more evidence to have a definitive answer (which we don't have now).
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We don't have Tetora appearance after volume 7 (where the reveal is at the end), so it's hard to say now what s/he really think of him/herself. Consider the fact that we need season 2 of Haganai (or volume 5 of novel) to be sure that Kusunoki Yukimura is biologically female, maybe we can have a temporary solution for now and change the result when there are more evidences.
As for the said temporary solution, I'd like to emphasize the "when in doubt" part; this is why in this thread we are talking about Souji and Natsuru. If there's no doubt in some sense, we can then (temporarily) assign them in the obvious way (which, I think, is the current way we are dealing with those characters -- see the "current" Constitution wording quoted above).
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So for now, judged by the fact that Tetora calls him/herself "galaxy idol" and the interaction between him/her and Naotsugu, I'd assign Tetora to female division.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by chaosprophet » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:55 pm

progheal wrote:As for the said temporary solution, I'd like to emphasize the "when in doubt" part; this is why in this thread we are talking about Souji and Natsuru. If there's no doubt in some sense, we can then (temporarily) assign them in the obvious way (which, I think, is the current way we are dealing with those characters -- see the "current" Constitution wording quoted above).
The problem of that part in the current Constitution is that it was made when there was only a female main contest, so priority would be given to the female form a character have in. Male forms wouldn't be in so there was no need to wonder whether it would be best to consider a character male or female, as only females would be in. The male contests was more of an side contest so there was no problem for a character to participate on both.

In any case, I have a question. Will characters from the male division ever face the ones in the female division? If they don't, then the simpler solution could be indeed something similar to what is in place now. A character female instances count for that character possibility of being eligible to the female divisions and a character male instances count for that character possibility of being eligible to the male division. If a character have enough scene as both he/she could participate in both as long they get enough nominations in each. With a nomination form that has separated parts for male and female noms, or even separated forms, it's doable.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by minhtam1638 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:05 pm

chaosprophet wrote:In any case, I have a question. Will characters from the male division ever face the ones in the female division? If they don't, then the simpler solution could be indeed something similar to what is in place now. A character female instances count for that character possibility of being eligible to the female divisions and a character male instances count for that character possibility of being eligible to the male division. If a character have enough scene as both he/she could participate in both as long they get enough nominations in each. With a nomination form that has separated parts for male and female noms, or even separated forms, it's doable.
I highly doubt it. The root of all these drastic changes stems from the whole Tiara/anti-Tiara voting thing, which has raised awareness that there are a strong contingent of voters that do not vote solely on the basis of moe, and while the Tiara/anti-Tiara voting is now in the past, there are still other forms of voting and anti-voting that aren't moe related (for example, anti-Nova vs anti-Stella in PS II). To have boys and girls compete in the same tournament would just add fuel to the fire - voters would have an excuse to vote only the boys or only the girls.

It sounds sexist when you think about it, but this is the internet we're talking about.
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Re: ISML 2015 - Male/Female Eligibility Discussion

Post by Bastion » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:43 pm

chaosprophet wrote:In any case, I have a question. Will characters from the male division ever face the ones in the female division? If they don't, then the simpler solution could be indeed something similar to what is in place now. A character female instances count for that character possibility of being eligible to the female divisions and a character male instances count for that character possibility of being eligible to the male division. If a character have enough scene as both he/she could participate in both as long they get enough nominations in each. With a nomination form that has separated parts for male and female noms, or even separated forms, it's doable.
If they're ever likely to face each other, it'll likely be in exhibition matches, like has been going on for years. Same with Stella vs Nova girls, most of them will never meet except in exhibition because by the time the Novas move up, the Stellas might have been knocked out by 'new blood'.

Only choosing one division for participants has been going on since the Male Tournament started, we're just trying to set it in the rules now since it's going to be official now.
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