New Captcha Change

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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Bastion » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:23 pm

The point I was trying to make is, we'll get to see how many people can actually do '5th grade' math with these captchas.
Is there going to be any data given on how many people needed to retry their math with this implementation? It would be amusing cookie question if it can be tracked, and hopefully we'll get to see the number go down as it works.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Homura » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:24 pm

Bastion wrote: Is there going to be any data given on how many people needed to retry their math with this implementation?
I'd like to see those data~
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by BugH » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:34 am

you got that simple algebra at 5th grade?
hmm...
then i must feel sorry for myself to get this lesson at first year in juniors ( 12 years old)
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Ash Falls Town » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:57 am

This is really surprising for me.

Well this would have made me stopped voting in ISML but since this is the first year of the male tournament I guess I'll still vote because I'd regret missing out otherwise.
Anyway I guess I just have to hope I don't get captchas with a negative number because I have no idea how to do that.

Edit: Actually since you have unlimited tries I think I worked out how I can do it. Since the answers are all integers you just have to plus or minus to make the big number into a number divisible by the number next to the x. And then you can just try it once positively and once with a minus sign.
...That's still a lot of work but at least I know how to do it now.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Kordosa » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:51 am

Ash Falls Town wrote:This is really surprising for me.

Well this would have made me stopped voting in ISML but since this is the first year of the male tournament I guess I'll still vote because I'd regret missing out otherwise.
Anyway I guess I just have to hope I don't get captchas with a negative number because I have no idea how to do that.

Edit: Actually since you have unlimited tries I think I worked out how I can do it. Since the answers are all integers you just have to plus or minus to make the big number into a number divisible by the number next to the x. And then you can just try it once positively and once with a minus sign.
...That's still a lot of work but at least I know how to do it now.
I'm pretty sure that the answer for X will always be a positive integer for the captcha answers (due to possible coding limitations; the usual lazy programming method* would be to only accept positive integers as input).

And no, I would not encourage fumbling through the problem like you describe. The goal is to get X on a side by itself. Therefore, you take steps to move each individual number to the other side one at a time. You do this by doing the opposite mathematical function that is in the equation (addition vs. subtraction, and multiplication vs. division) to everything on both sides.

The first example that Kholdy posted that features Hinagiku is rather straightforward:
SolutionShow
-25 = -4x + 11
-25 - 11 = -4x + 11 - 11 {Since the right side is adding 11, you subtract 11 from both sides in order to "move" it over to the left side}
-36 = -4x
-36 / -4 = -4x / -4 {Since the right side is multiplying X by -4, you divide by -4 on both sides to "move" it over to the left side}
9 = x
In the above example, you could also start by dividing both sides by -4, but you would need to remember to divide each individual variable of each side by it.
Alternate solutionShow
-25 = -4x + 11
-25 / -4 = (-4x / -4) + (11 / -4) {Divide both sides by -4 to "move" it over to the left side}
(25/4) = x - (11/4) {Since multiplication/division of two negative numbers equals a positive, you can drop both negative signs from (-25 / -4). And adding a negative number (11 / -4) to a positive number is the same thing as subtracting it, hence dropping the plus sign in favor of the minus sign.}
(25/4) + (11/4) = x - (11/4) + (11/4) {Add (11/4) to both sides to "move" it over to the left side}
36/4 = x
9 = x
In both solution methods above, the same basic rules are applied, but the order of which variables are moved are simply different.

Edit:

*And no, I'm not implying Crisu's programming is lazy, but just noting that in general, sometimes programming shortcuts are made to reduce coding length due to counting on the common sense of the potential users. For example, if a certain input field explicitly asks for a number, then most users will use common sense and put a number (as opposed to a letter or special character). Hence, the programmer won't have to account for incorrect input types.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by minhtam1638 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:20 pm

Ok, I saw this thread, and I figured I'd give my two cents on the new Captcha change, since US education is actually my current background.

Let me preface by saying that I am currently in graduate school at Fairfield University studying Secondary Education in Mathematics. Thus I am studying to be a math teacher in the US. From all of the grad school class that I have taken thus far, the professors go out of their way to make the point that the United States' educational system is completely flawed. Today, the government sets strict standards on how schools should be run, what the curriculum should be, and when to teach the curriculum to the students, regardless of whether they are ready for the subject material or not. And they evaluate students' performances through endless hours of standardized testing, which isn't a good way to judge a students' content knowledge at all. Teachers in the United States teach students "to the test", meaning they teach students how to pass the standardized tests, and that's pretty much about it. There's no meaningful learning that is going on in an overwhelming majority of classrooms in the United States, and this is across all subject areas.

I saw a post earlier that the new captcha, which tests basic algebra, would advantage the Chinese voters (especially Baidu) because here in the United States, one can pass high school and even college without knowing their basic times tables and division tables, going so far as to having to use a calculator to figure out what 7 * 6 is. That's not KholdStare's or Maglor's fault, but rather the fault of the flawed United States educational system. The United States, in an attempt to remain the superpower among the world's nations, completely screwed up in setting their educational system that it results in the students in school being conditioned to work hard for the grade rather than actually learn. To say that our educational system is "that bad" is an extremely underwhelming statement.

So here's the bottom line. If the captcha makes us do integrals, then I would for sure go off on maglor for making the captcha's too hard. But this is linear algebra, something that should be taught to students before the reach high school (in the state of Connecticut, we are required to teach simple Algebra in 7th grade). Let's use this, and then we can add some instructions on how to solve simple algebraic problems like these. If we do so, hopefully the voter who normally struggles in algebra would be motivated to try to do it, and in the process of voting in this season, the voter could would actually learn how to do simple math problems and not flinch at the sight of it.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Momento10 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:54 pm

If worse comes to worse, we can put up a math link or something under the captcha teaching them how to do linear algebra if they don't know/remember how to do it. Then, if people still complain about the difficulty of the problems, we would inform them that a link was provided to help them, so their complaint is uncalled for.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Chocola » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:05 am

This thread scares me, seriously.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by minhtam1638 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:21 am

y'know, I have half a mind to write up an actual help page for voters that need a refresher on solving linear equations. I'm supposed to do something similar down the road anyway.

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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Bastion » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:42 pm

Kholdy wrote:This thread scares me, seriously.
And that scares me. I've known this for years, it's just confirmation.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Chocola » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:55 pm

Bastion wrote:
Kholdy wrote:This thread scares me, seriously.
And that scares me. I've known this for years, it's just confirmation.
Typical Bastion slap-in-the-face response. I am in Mathematics Education Research (not the becoming-a-teacher kind, but creating-math-curriculum kind). I've already known about this and more things about US the math education system. Why do you think we're doing math captcha in the first place starting last year? What scares me is that reality is more scary than what you real in books and publications. I've never struggled with math, and what I tutor are higher level math (calculus, discrete), so this is my first "practical" case.

tl;dr we already know how bad war is, but we don't really know until a gun is shooting next to our ear

EDIT: We still need to release captcha data from last year.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Homura » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:15 pm

Other voices. I have a friend (my high school classmate in China) who majors in civil engineering, and is surely good at math. He thinks the captcha sucks simply because he doesn't like to see linear equation solving being involved in ISML voting. He hates the very idea. The good news is I've persuaded him, while the bad news is there are too many him I cannot reach.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Bastion » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:23 pm

Kholdy wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Kholdy wrote:This thread scares me, seriously.
And that scares me. I've known this for years, it's just confirmation.
tl;dr we already know how bad war is, but we don't really know until a gun is shooting next to our ear
And that's what scares me, this has been going on for years (I lived it for 30 and finally gave up trying to bring up intelligence), and math and the US is not where it stops. It's really scary how stupid people really are.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Chocola » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:34 pm

Homura wrote:Other voices. I have a friend (my high school classmate in China) who majors in civil engineering, and is surely good at math. He thinks the captcha sucks simply because he doesn't like to see linear equation solving being involved in ISML voting. He hates the very idea. The good news is I've persuaded him, while the bad news is there are too many him I cannot reach.
We realize that math has nothing to do with ISML. We only wanted a captcha, and instead of the typical captcha services that has KNOWN SOLVERS out there, we decided to make our own captcha, which just happens to have some math. Remember that we did try the drag captcha, but that was not available in many languages so we created our own. One reason why we chose math is that math is universal. You don't need languages because math is mostly the same everywhere.
Bastion wrote:
Kholdy wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Kholdy wrote:This thread scares me, seriously.
And that scares me. I've known this for years, it's just confirmation.
tl;dr we already know how bad war is, but we don't really know until a gun is shooting next to our ear
And that's what scares me, this has been going on for years (I lived it for 30 and finally gave up trying to bring up intelligence), and math and the US is not where it stops. It's really scary how stupid people really are.
Yes. All for glorious nationalism.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Bastion » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:58 pm

Kholdy wrote:Yes. All for glorious nationalism.
Technically I'm not American either :p
Neither is the person who would have failed the intelligence test required by this capcha, and she does have a degree, while I don't.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Homura » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:07 pm

Ha, one of the most interesting things in this forum is trying to figure out where our people are from.

While I directly gave my location for some purposes, I was relatively reluctant to put my age in the profile at the beginning, but finally I thought it was fairer to people who revealed theirs.

Kholdy wrote:We only wanted a captcha, and instead of the typical captcha services that has KNOWN SOLVERS out there, we decided to make our own captcha
All right.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Chocola » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:18 pm

I will be writing a short "how to solve our algebra captcha" post later today.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Fuijiwara » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:21 am

Kholdy is being a teacher, wonder how that's going to work out
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by minhtam1638 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:01 pm

Kholdy wrote:I will be writing a short "how to solve our algebra captcha" post later today.
Post? That tutorial has to be featured on the actual site. It needs it's own web page.
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Re: New Captcha Change

Post by Momento10 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:32 am

They have three weeks to code a small box underneath the captcha explaining how to do it (assuming that it will be used during the nomination period), which should be plenty of time (this is from a person who knows nothing about coding).

Then again, having it as a link to a thread here has its benefits, mainly as that one in a possible chance said voters have the choice to not only just come here to know how to solve an algebra problem, but also to roam around the forums, see the kind of faces there are here, etc.
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