ISML 2016

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Re: ISML 2016

Post by 10ZHAbin » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:53 am

maglor wrote:
matchbaby wrote:Thanks for all hard work done by Crisu.


So, no more regular season anymore?
OMG
----------
Look forward to see the first seed being sniped in the first round...
That can happen if the first seed end up being placed 3rd or last in their group.
Chibasa wrote:As I understand it, we will have a group stage to seed characters (32 groups of 4 girls & 32 groups of 4 boys?) and then Round of 128 or round of 64 (if they choose to eliminate half candidate during group stage).
Thank you, my understanding so far:
-128 characters selected from nominations (120 for girls since they have auto-nomination from seasonal)
-Group stage of 32 groups of 4 characters, round-robin within the group, bottom 2 eliminated.
-Top 64 gets their bios and enters elimination.
-Win-or-go-home until the champion is crowned.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by RatedRKO619305 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:12 am

10ZHAbin wrote:
maglor wrote:
matchbaby wrote:Thanks for all hard work done by Crisu.


So, no more regular season anymore?
OMG
----------
Look forward to see the first seed being sniped in the first round...
That can happen if the first seed end up being placed 3rd or last in their group.
Chibasa wrote:As I understand it, we will have a group stage to seed characters (32 groups of 4 girls & 32 groups of 4 boys?) and then Round of 128 or round of 64 (if they choose to eliminate half candidate during group stage).
Thank you, my understanding so far:
-128 characters selected from nominations (120 for girls since they have auto-nomination from seasonal)
-Group stage of 32 groups of 4 characters, round-robin within the group, bottom 2 eliminated.
-Top 64 gets their bios and enters elimination.
-Win-or-go-home until the champion is crowned.
Yeah, true. It may be that format. Win or go home makes sense.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by RockmanXt » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:15 am

That's good, very good.
As far as I know, ISML lose voter interest every year because they are tired from all the year long event, more and more complex every year. Simple is the best.

I don't worrying about seeding, intra-series, or others same problem. Sometimes luck is need more than stats, even world cup or UCL grouping still use draw lots, and have Group of Death or same country derby match most of the times.

and Shana can continue her 7-color-necklace quest, and let other to do so, if you are not crowned.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by maglor » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:50 am

matchbaby wrote:What I am worrying about is the following:
1. How do you seed the characters?
-Without adequate information, it is hard to ensure no 'strongs vs strongs' in group stage.(If only based on nomination, well, death group) for example, 1st: Nao 64th: Yuigahama 65th: Yoshino 128th: hmm...maybe Komachi?

2. How to avoid/will you avoid same anime in one group?
-too many intra battles are not good(?)
3. How to judge contestants for necklaces in single elimination tournament?
-VF? (back to 2008 gj) VF%? (Pray to your opponents guys!)
4. Without enough statistics support for a whole season, can you still handle those multi-votes?
-of course statistics is useless last year I know
1. We have to rely on nomination count plus tweaks using any metric available. At the minimum we can say top two will be protected no mater how we mess up the groups. I also want to say that it will be extremely unlikely that more than two characters who are among top 20 in the nomination be assigned to same group in the 1st round. If group of death forms, we may simply have to accept this as will of the nominators. The plan I have in mind is go straight by nomination count, break any ties by previous performances, followed by series representation consideration, and assign 33rd to 40th seed to the 2015 seasonal finalists in order to let them avoid anyone who is in top 20 of nominations.

I do need to point out that current plan for the rank within the group is Wins > Head-to-head > cumulative (VF - VA = VD) > nomination results if possible > seed number .

2. All matches will be 1vs1 type so intra battles won't be that much of problem. Still, I think it is advisable to move a character to another group if our default algorithm indicate a group will have 3 or 4 characters from same franchise.

3. Some options are around. One is very simple straight forward necklace match result and nothing else. Another one is necklace match's VF% * the character's cumulative (VF + VA) number. While Cumulative VF represents popularity of a character, cumulative VA represents relative quality of their opponents. This scoring system can make people think twice before attempting to snipe someone just for the sake of necklace.

4. We got some tricks we can try this year. We are constantly looking for ideas we haven't tried as well.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by 10ZHAbin » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:15 am

Suddenly thought of something while looking at Best/Guy Contest 2 results so I'll throw it out here.
SpoilerShow
In many Saimoes I've seen, the match-up are either set in place sometimes with seedings (e.g.winner of Bracket A face the winner of Bracket B, winner of vs 8th vs 9th face the winner of 1st vs 16th) or randomized each time a round is finished. On one hand with the seedings, it will make sure that the stronger ones will face the weaker ones most of the time, but the next match up are predictable since the winner will definite face the winner from one bracket, not another. On the other hand with random grouping, people will never know who the character will face until the round is over and match up is released, this is exciting but it also creates unbalanced grouping and strong characters can go out on the early rounds.

I wondered if there's a way between the two, and I realized that there's.
1Show
First one is to reseed the characters each round, with VF, VD, VF% or whatever equations that can sorts characters into rankings (I think I've seen this partially-implanted in a Saimoe Tournament before, but I can't remember which one).
Although the problem is trying to find the best way of seeding, I can't think of one that is suitable. Something too simple (VF, VD, VA, VF%) can be too easily manipulated and affect by other factors (some match days have more voters than others, intra-series match-up ect.), something too difficult will make the tournament more complicated to understand. There is also a consideration of whether to include stats for just one round or all the results of the year, should the nomination take part, if so then how to deal with the auto-nominated characters.
2Show
It' probably better by an example.
Example:
In a ISML 2008~2011 Final League, the match up goes like this:
1 vs 16
2 vs 15
3 vs 14
4 vs 13
5 vs 12
6 vs 11
7 vs 10
8 vs 9

Supposed that 12th seed upsetted 5th seed, no other upsets, which leaves the remaining characters to:
1
2
3
4
6
7
8
12

Under normal match up, 12th seed will face the 4rd seed, which is who the 5th seed would have meet.
1 vs 8
2 vs 7
3 vs 6
4 vs 12

However in this new case, the match up goes:
1 vs 12
2 vs 8
3 vs 7
4 vs 6

Simply put, the previous match-up is disregarded, and the highest seed face the lowest seed, 2nd-highest seed face the 2nd-lowest seed and so on.
Next match up is unknown (sort of), but the match up is not random. It's a little better with randomized grouping but it's still giving more power to luck than stats, a bad seed in the early round then the candidate is doomed to go through 1~4 seed all the way if she is to gain the Tiara.
At this point I'm guessing the elimination period will be something like Best/Guy Contest 2, except with only 64 characters. I think that's simple to understand and I do like it, I wrote this down since I want to see some unpredictability in match-ups without completely relying on random chances.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by maglor » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:36 am

10ZHAbin wrote:Suddenly thought of something while looking at Best/Guy Contest 2 results so I'll throw it out here.
SpoilerShow
In many Saimoes I've seen, the match-up are either set in place sometimes with seedings (e.g.winner of Bracket A face the winner of Bracket B, winner of vs 8th vs 9th face the winner of 1st vs 16th) or randomized each time a round is finished. On one hand with the seedings, it will make sure that the stronger ones will face the weaker ones most of the time, but the next match up are predictable since the winner will definite face the winner from one bracket, not another. On the other hand with random grouping, people will never know who the character will face until the round is over and match up is released, this is exciting but it also creates unbalanced grouping and strong characters can go out on the early rounds.

I wondered if there's a way between the two, and I realized that there's.
1Show
First one is to reseed the characters each round, with VF, VD, VF% or whatever equations that can sorts characters into rankings (I think I've seen this partially-implanted in a Saimoe Tournament before, but I can't remember which one).
Although the problem is trying to find the best way of seeding, I can't think of one that is suitable. Something too simple (VF, VD, VA, VF%) can be too easily manipulated and affect by other factors (some match days have more voters than others, intra-series match-up ect.), something too difficult will make the tournament more complicated to understand. There is also a consideration of whether to include stats for just one round or all the results of the year, should the nomination take part, if so then how to deal with the auto-nominated characters.
2Show
It' probably better by an example.
Example:
In a ISML 2008~2011 Final League, the match up goes like this:
1 vs 16
2 vs 15
3 vs 14
4 vs 13
5 vs 12
6 vs 11
7 vs 10
8 vs 9

Supposed that 12th seed upsetted 5th seed, no other upsets, which leaves the remaining characters to:
1
2
3
4
6
7
8
12

Under normal match up, 12th seed will face the 4rd seed, which is who the 5th seed would have meet.
1 vs 8
2 vs 7
3 vs 6
4 vs 12

However in this new case, the match up goes:
1 vs 12
2 vs 8
3 vs 7
4 vs 6

Simply put, the previous match-up is disregarded, and the highest seed face the lowest seed, 2nd-highest seed face the 2nd-lowest seed and so on.
Next match up is unknown (sort of), but the match up is not random. It's a little better with randomized grouping but it's still giving more power to luck than stats, a bad seed in the early round then the candidate is doomed to go through 1~4 seed all the way if she is to gain the Tiara.
At this point I'm guessing the elimination period will be something like Best/Guy Contest 2, except with only 64 characters. I think that's simple to understand and I do like it, I wrote this down since I want to see some unpredictability in match-ups without completely relying on random chances.
The current plan is to reseed everyone for the new group assignments for round of 64, primarily based on their finish ranks in the 1st round. We haven't yet decided on how strict we will make the algorithm, since no algorithm can give us perfect group assignments for every possible situation for round 2.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by Reverend » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:54 am

Why do, on my mind, I get this kinda weird scene of Maglor doing a livestream in youtube while seeding everyone one by one?
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by matchbaby » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:54 am

Reverend wrote:Why do, on my mind, I get this kinda weird scene of Maglor doing a livestream in youtube while seeding everyone one by one?
LOL
That is funny :P

Btw thanks for maglor's explanation, if I have time I will think of some necklace plans and share with you guys.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by minhtam1638 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:54 pm

Reverend wrote:Why do, on my mind, I get this kinda weird scene of Maglor doing a livestream in youtube while seeding everyone one by one?
That's actually not unprecedented. We actually did do a live draw on IRC chat for 2009 placement.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by Reverend » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:25 pm

minhtam1638 wrote:
Reverend wrote:Why do, on my mind, I get this kinda weird scene of Maglor doing a livestream in youtube while seeding everyone one by one?
That's actually not unprecedented. We actually did do a live draw on IRC chat for 2009 placement.
well then a second will be nice :P
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by Kiwigiwi » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:40 pm

A little late for the party but hopefully it's not too late to thank Crisu for all the hard work over the years.
WoodyMC wrote:
Reverend wrote:
Fuijiwara wrote:We will miss you Crisu :(
Lots of changes happening this year. No prelims, no post-season. It's an even bigger change than last year, which may bring about some concerns and confusion on the voters' end.
I'm also a little concerned about the 128 characters for each main tournament getting through right after nominations. It would make a wider range of people interested to vote, sure.. but I can imagine it's going to be hellish keeping track of the progress of so many characters throughout the seasons, even if the period for ISML is shortened. (Do correct me on this if I'm wrong, since I am trying my best to understand the format for this year.)

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Re: ISML 2016

Post by Chibasa » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:40 pm

So necklaces will occurs after each round? Maybe taking best performance (VF/VD/VF%) to choose X contestants?
To get 7 necklaces I only saw one way:
1st necklace: After nominations (X people with more ballots).
2nd necklace after group stage.
3rd necklace after Round of 64.
4th necklace after Round of 32.
5th necklace after Round of 16.
6th necklace after Quarterfinals+Seeding matches for top 16.
7th necklace after Semifinals+Seeding matches for top 16.

A necklace after final would be strange. But maybe I missed something ^-^
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by Chocola » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:00 pm

Kurogarasu wrote:A little late for the party but hopefully it's not too late to thank Crisu for all the hard work over the years.
WoodyMC wrote:
Reverend wrote:
Fuijiwara wrote:We will miss you Crisu :(
Lots of changes happening this year. No prelims, no post-season. It's an even bigger change than last year, which may bring about some concerns and confusion on the voters' end.
I'm also a little concerned about the 128 characters for each main tournament getting through right after nominations. It would make a wider range of people interested to vote, sure.. but I can imagine it's going to be hellish keeping track of the progress of so many characters throughout the seasons, even if the period for ISML is shortened. (Do correct me on this if I'm wrong, since I am trying my best to understand the format for this year.)
Hi. Thanks for your concern. One of the reason we changed the format was because ISML was getting too complicated. While this may seem like a big change, the resulting format is very easy to understand because it's mostly a variation of straight single elimination. Starting with 128, after each round, the number of contestants is halved, eventually leading to 1 winner.

128 -> 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 -> 2 -> 1
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by smartboyhw » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:33 am

Chibasa wrote:So necklaces will occurs after each round? Maybe taking best performance (VF/VD/VF%) to choose X contestants?
To get 7 necklaces I only saw one way:
1st necklace: After nominations (X people with more ballots).
2nd necklace after group stage.
3rd necklace after Round of 64.
4th necklace after Round of 32.
5th necklace after Round of 16.
6th necklace after Quarterfinals+Seeding matches for top 16.
7th necklace after Semifinals+Seeding matches for top 16.

A necklace after final would be strange. But maybe I missed something ^-^
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by 10ZHAbin » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:37 am

How is seasonal gonna work? 24 - 8 - 4 - 2 - 1?
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by smartboyhw » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:37 am

10ZHAbin wrote:How is seasonal gonna work? 24 - 8 - 4 - 2 - 1?
24 - 16 - 8 - 4 - 2 - 1. Top 8 seeds receive a bye for Tableau of 32.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by Kiwigiwi » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:02 pm

Isla wrote: Hi. Thanks for your concern. One of the reason we changed the format was because ISML was getting too complicated. While this may seem like a big change, the resulting format is very easy to understand because it's mostly a variation of straight single elimination. Starting with 128, after each round, the number of contestants is halved, eventually leading to 1 winner.

128 -> 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 -> 2 -> 1
Ah I see! Thank you for clarifying!

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Re: ISML 2016

Post by maglor » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:10 pm

Reverend wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:
Reverend wrote:Why do, on my mind, I get this kinda weird scene of Maglor doing a livestream in youtube while seeding everyone one by one?
That's actually not unprecedented. We actually did do a live draw on IRC chat for 2009 placement.
well then a second will be nice :P
We can do something similar for the seeding at irc://irc.rizon.net/isml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I do suspect it will be boring because we will decide on the algorithm before nomination period is over, thus most of the spot will be assigned as soon as we have the nomination tally. The main talk will be about exceptions to the algorithm, and KS, RS, and I likes to throw around lots of math terminologies. If math scares you, our talk will be horrifying.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by Reverend » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:49 pm

maglor wrote:
Reverend wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:
Reverend wrote:Why do, on my mind, I get this kinda weird scene of Maglor doing a livestream in youtube while seeding everyone one by one?
That's actually not unprecedented. We actually did do a live draw on IRC chat for 2009 placement.
well then a second will be nice :P
We can do something similar for the seeding at irc://irc.rizon.net/isml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I do suspect it will be boring because we will decide on the algorithm before nomination period is over, thus most of the spot will be assigned as soon as we have the nomination tally. The main talk will be about exceptions to the algorithm, and KS, RS, and I likes to throw around lots of math terminologies. If math scares you, our talk will be horrifying.
well, if you make it as detailed as it used to, in order to get the most accurate, of course it'll be boring to most. :P
(this is now no longer a league, a little extra luck element should be fair.)

Just post the schedule here, though, if you really think to open discussion to non-staff, as well. ;)
I'm pretty sure there will be non-forum members who read this thread and are interested with the idea.
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Re: ISML 2016

Post by akumaxx » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:00 pm

Here is part of my choice:
If one character has to be male (which is as stupid as ToC), then Tippy @ Gochiusa.
Otherwise, release this slot.
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