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Re: A New discussion

Post by superunature » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:57 am

2010 started with simply 20 points for each char. and took 12000 posts to finish
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Crisu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:08 am

That's because the game favored healing more than hurting. It has to be much cheaper to hurt than to heal if there's actually going to be a reduction in overall points.

I would limit it to one turn per day (but giving you more points to use each turn). Or twice per day. Maybe it's a long wait, but it would give you time to strategize or even ally up to use all of your points at once to snipe somebody. /brainstorm
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Chocola » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:05 am

To continue with the "healing more than hurting" discussion, I suggest that everyone starts out with 1 heal, 2 hurt, and will have to use all 3 actions (you cannot just heal and not hurt). This way, the game is sure to end. If we add other things later, every post would still need to be more hurt than heal.

But I have to put out a reminder that people play this game to pass time, so while having one turn a day fixes the mechanics of the game, it will make the game the opposite of why people play the game. No hating here, just truths. However, a limit a day (such as 10) could be nice, although it's going to take a lot of effort to enforce it.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Momo » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:31 am

I agree with KS, if we start with something like 5 AP, where at least 3 must be used to hurt, (and as we increase, hurt must be equal to, or greater than heal) then even if we started at 500 it would be feasible. If people want to hurt more, then I'd say that's alright too, rather than a solid you-must-heal-someone.

Limits are always hard to enforce...

Both of these came up nearing the end of the old H/H thread, as well as strategizing, co-operating and such. If it had gone on, Sora would have been next to die, followed by Louise, while the other endless stalemates were redirected iirc

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Re: A New discussion

Post by Bastion » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:10 pm

Maybe impose a limit to the number of times a character can be healed in a day, creating a stronger prevalance to hurting and reducing the number of girls to keep track of before long.
I'd also favor limiting how often a single user could post, but that could lead to multi-accounts and such engineered especially for the game.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Chocola » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:55 pm

My problem with any kind of limit is that who will keep track? I know Fate plays the game, but it can't really be enforced. Time zones will make people confused for "x times a day" limits.

But how about this? At each stage, impose a maximum.
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Proposal:

General Rules
-All actions cost the same. For example, (-1 Hurt) for two characters cost the same as (-2 Hurt) for one character.
-Because of the above rule, no actions are ever unlocked, but more AP can be unlocked.
-Every time 10 characters are eliminated, everyone gains 1 AP.
-There is a maximum points for all characters. Every time 10 characters are eliminated, the maximum is raised.
-For all posts, you must hurt ≥ you heal, no exceptions.
-Other rules still apply, such as you must wait x posts until posting again.
-All characters start with 100 HP.

50-41 Characters
-Everyone gets 2 AP.
-Maximum: Characters cannot exceed 200 points.
-Available: (+1 Heal, -1 Hurt) & (-1 Hurt) & (-2 Hurt).

40-31 Characters
-Everyone gets 3 AP.
-Maximum: Characters cannot exceed 250 points.
-Available: (+1 Heal, -1 Hurt) & (+1 Heal, -2 Hurt) & (-1 Hurt) & (-2 Hurt) & (-3 Hurt)

31-21 Characters
-Everyone gets 4 AP.
-Maximum: Characters cannot exceed 300 points.
-Available: You get the idea, just that Heal cannot exceed Hurt.

20-11 Characters:
-Everyone gets 5 AP.
-Maximum: Characters cannot exceed 400 points.
-Available: You get the idea, just that Heal cannot exceed Hurt.

10-1 Characters:
-Everyone gets 5 AP.
-Maximum: Characters cannot exceed 500 points.
-Available: You can only Hurt.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by hinakatbklyn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:17 pm

The healing may be the reason the game is neverending, but the reason the game was stopped was the speed posting to a point where you had trouble keeping track of who had how many points. Since there's a post time at the top of each post, in the event of 5 or 6 posters at the same time, set up a time limit of 5 minutes per poster in addition to waiting 3 posts before posting an action. That way you have time to check the HP of each character.

I would at least start with 100 or 200 HP though.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Chocola » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:28 pm

Hm, if everyone starts with 100 HP, then the total points we start with is 5000, which is quite a lot. Assuming that the average for each post is -1 Hurt, then the game will end around 250 pages. Would that be acceptable?
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Bastion » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:47 pm

A time zone 'standard' would have to be set at the beginning, but it's the only forseeable way to stop mass-posting times.
Maybe you could impose a limit of how many times an action could be taken in a 24-hour period, but it would have to be monitered pretty closely to make sure it was followed.

In the HP limits, if the character goes over, are the extra points just forgotten? I tend to dislike games that impose 'glass ceiling' limits like that, the ceilings just seem artificial, no matter whether they're ever actually hit or not.

Also, a daily accounting of current HP might change things up, instead of having to keep track from post-to-post, you simply post your actions, which are then taken into account in the tally and reduce the number of errors from grabbing the data from posts that might not be the most recent.

Maybe a seperate 'ranking' and game for each period, so that the girls could be concievable broken into tiers, power at the start of the period, although the game could take longer than the eight rounds of voting to finish, could also include the exhibition match girls that way as well. The girl with the highest life total gets a statue or something.
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Confusing statements are fun :p
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Kordosa wrote:I can just imagine all of the Hinagiku facepalming moments. That alone is worth it.
HnG chapter 333 pg 9 wrote:She (Hinagiku) realized an incredibly obvious but oft overlooked point: One had to read the manga before they could give their judgment of it.
ithekro wrote:Remember you aren't allowed to use your powers for evil.
With great power comes great responsibility
Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Tomoya Okazaki wrote:Can I beat you until you're motionless?
MegaTokyo wrote:Some of us are just a little more screwed up than others.
Saber (maglor) wrote:It is not how much, but it is where the king spends that tells what kind of king he is.
Rito wrote:Men don't decide whether they like someone or not based solely on breast size.
Kordosa wrote:Boy, I really need to learn to keep my questions to myself. It only makes things worse.
The lunatics around you are once again doing something to lower your opinion of human intelligence. ~Face Palm
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Chocola » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:55 pm

I just realized that because Hurt ≥ Heal, there doesn't need to be a ceiling ever. In fact, by simply changing it so that you can never heal more than you hurt, all problems with this game will take care of itself. Wanna start?
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Re: A New discussion

Post by hinakatbklyn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:00 pm

I'll wait for everyone else and see if they agree or disagree, but I don't see a problem this time.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Bastion » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:00 pm

KholdStare88 wrote:I just realized that because Hurt ≥ Heal, there doesn't need to be a ceiling ever. In fact, by simply changing it so that you can never heal more than you hurt, all problems with this game will take care of itself. Wanna start?
Given that you can heal one character while hurting another, people could work together and bring someone to the ceiling quite easily. Pile all of the healing on one character while spreading out the hurt to others.
Jamie AB is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?
Confusing statements are fun :p
Medaka Kurokami wrote:People aren't meant to protect the rules, rules are meant to protect people
(*'////'*)
SpoilerShow
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae27 ... nner-1.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/img]

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*Puts Nagi behind the drums and Hinagiku at the front with the mike and a guitar*
Banners made by Midnight Jasper & Marinara
Kordosa wrote:I can just imagine all of the Hinagiku facepalming moments. That alone is worth it.
HnG chapter 333 pg 9 wrote:She (Hinagiku) realized an incredibly obvious but oft overlooked point: One had to read the manga before they could give their judgment of it.
ithekro wrote:Remember you aren't allowed to use your powers for evil.
With great power comes great responsibility
Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Tomoya Okazaki wrote:Can I beat you until you're motionless?
MegaTokyo wrote:Some of us are just a little more screwed up than others.
Saber (maglor) wrote:It is not how much, but it is where the king spends that tells what kind of king he is.
Rito wrote:Men don't decide whether they like someone or not based solely on breast size.
Kordosa wrote:Boy, I really need to learn to keep my questions to myself. It only makes things worse.
The lunatics around you are once again doing something to lower your opinion of human intelligence. ~Face Palm
Your sense of time tells you how much of your life has been wasted because you didn't take us at our word. ~Cracked.com
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Chocola » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:09 pm

Too bad you can't make up your mind. Do you want a ceiling or not?

Note that making a ceiling would be difficult. For example, with 100 HP, the total points is 5000. If everyone uses -2 Hurt, then by the time 10 characters are eliminated, there will be 4000 points left. However, if everyone only uses +1 Heal -1 Hurt, then after 10 characters are eliminated, there will be 5000 points total. So by the time there are 40 characters left, the total HP would be somewhere between 4000 and 5000, which means creating such a ceiling would be too arbitrary. Probability formulas won't help mainly because we cannot assume all actions are performed equally or that all characters are healed/hurt equally. By the time there are 10 characters left, our total HP would be between 1000 and 5000, which is a huge range to impose a ceiling.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by hinakatbklyn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:13 pm

I choose ceiling just so no character(s) HP goes too high.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Chocola » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:17 pm

hinakatbklyn wrote:I choose ceiling just so no character(s) HP goes too high.
If we do have a ceiling, then the best I can come up is a formula that is dependent on the total points after each stage. For example:

Let T = total HP of all remaining characters.

50 characters
Ceiling = 2T/40
But we know what T is here, so 2*5000/40 = 250

40 characters
Ceiling = 2T/30

30 characters
Ceiling = 2T/20

20 characters
Ceiling = 2T/10

10 characters
No ceiling

The only problem is that no one knows why I chose that formula, and someone will have to calculate the new ceiling every time 10 characters are eliminated.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Bastion » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:28 pm

KholdStare88 wrote:Too bad you can't make up your mind. Do you want a ceiling or no?
Eh? I wasn't changing my reasoning for not liking a ceiling, just pointing out that your reasoning for not needing one was flawed. One will eventually need some kind of ceiling on a game with healing, I just don't like it. But life isn't always fair.

I would say that the characters starting with their 'max HP' is probably the most reasonable, that way things start off with hurting, and thus dropping, characters because there's no where to go but down. It's also potentially the only way of keeping the game somewhat limited.
Maybe the characters could 'level up' at certain points, allowing greater maximums to be reached. This is where a game moderator would be needed though.
Jamie AB is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?
Confusing statements are fun :p
Medaka Kurokami wrote:People aren't meant to protect the rules, rules are meant to protect people
(*'////'*)
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Banners made by Midnight Jasper & Marinara
Kordosa wrote:I can just imagine all of the Hinagiku facepalming moments. That alone is worth it.
HnG chapter 333 pg 9 wrote:She (Hinagiku) realized an incredibly obvious but oft overlooked point: One had to read the manga before they could give their judgment of it.
ithekro wrote:Remember you aren't allowed to use your powers for evil.
With great power comes great responsibility
Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Tomoya Okazaki wrote:Can I beat you until you're motionless?
MegaTokyo wrote:Some of us are just a little more screwed up than others.
Saber (maglor) wrote:It is not how much, but it is where the king spends that tells what kind of king he is.
Rito wrote:Men don't decide whether they like someone or not based solely on breast size.
Kordosa wrote:Boy, I really need to learn to keep my questions to myself. It only makes things worse.
The lunatics around you are once again doing something to lower your opinion of human intelligence. ~Face Palm
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Re: A New discussion

Post by superunature » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:29 pm

I like no ceiling, just like money, you can never have too much :P
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Chocola » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:35 pm

Arcion wrote:
KholdStare88 wrote:Too bad you can't make up your mind. Do you want a ceiling or no?
Eh? I wasn't changing my reasoning for not liking a ceiling, just pointing out that your reasoning for not needing one was flawed.
Why is it flawed? I just proved that no matter what happens, the total HP pool will be at most 5000, which is a ceiling. Therefore, we don't need one. In the old version, one can Heal and not Hurt indefinitely, therefore having no ceiling. Of course, I have nothing against your ignorance of simply not understand a logical argument.

Supposition: Hurt ≥ Heal implies no ceiling needed, because in the worst case scenario, there is already a ceiling of 5000.
Given Hurt ≥ Heal, T = starting total HP
=> Heal - Hurt ≤ 0
=> T + (Heal - Hurt) ≤ T
For all T, Hurt, Heal in the Natural Numbers, the above statement is true.
=> T is the supremum of the set of all possible total HP.
Since T is included in the set, it is a maximum.
If T is given a value of 5000, then the maximum is 5000.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Alexander » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:41 pm

I'm fine with the Hurt > Heal.
The main problem with the game is the ridiculous amount of speed posting.
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Re: A New discussion

Post by Toady » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:56 pm

I agree with Alexander. These two or three last weeks I didn't play so much, but before it could take my entire night and I don't want this. Well, one could say I can just not participate, but I don't want to.

I liked the idea of 10 posts per day maximum. But it brings another problem : what "day" are we talking about in this case ? A 24 hours period, a GMT+0 day ?

100 HP seems okay as a beginning and I don't think we need a ceiling as people probably won't hesitate to use -2, -3 or worse if a character gets too high.
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