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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:38 am

Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:There had been no major issues with canon or continuity before Disney acquired Lucasfilm. And it wasn't until the new movies were announced that there were going to be any issues at all.
Given that I knew there were major issues a long time ago, Disney had nothing to do with the problems.
I'm glad to know you were on top of things all this time. Perhaps you should have been a consultant for Lucasfilm back then. /sarcasm
My point being that the most casual fan (which you admit you are of the Trek franchise) knew of the problems. Thus making my point that you're bringing up problems you knew existed and just didn't care until now.
Regarding Star Wars, I knew that there were potential continuity problems IF Lucasfilm ever decided to making Episodes VII through IX. However, my magic 8-ball had no way of predicting that they actually would be made since "all signs point to negative", given what Lucas himself had stated previously. It's not like I knew there were problems and I just simply ignored them; it was quite reasonable enough for me (and thousands of other Star Wars fans) to assume that there never would be a sequel trilogy, and thus there would never be a question of whether or not the novel continuity conflicted with the movie continuity.

As for Star Trek, I know nothing about the continuity other than that each of the TV series were set a couple hundred years apart from each other.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:50 pm

Kordosa wrote:Regarding Star Wars, I knew that there were potential continuity problems IF Lucasfilm ever decided to making Episodes VII through IX. However, my magic 8-ball had no way of predicting that they actually would be made since "all signs point to negative", given what Lucas himself had stated previously. It's not like I knew there were problems and I just simply ignored them; it was quite reasonable enough for me (and thousands of other Star Wars fans) to assume that there never would be a sequel trilogy, and thus there would never be a question of whether or not the novel continuity conflicted with the movie continuity.
It was clear that the continuity of Trek was set as well, but that tried to be thrown out too. Just because there's suddenly a problem doesn't make it right for fans to create an uproar.

And just to point out, one of the Trek authors has created his own series that was associated with the canon. No TV show or movies at all, and I'm willing to bet that there aren't any plans to change that.

And I use Trek examples because that's what I have knowledge of instead of Wars. I think I mentioned a third 'Star' series that I'm a fan of that underwent similar situations, but I don't know as much about that one. It had the same problems as Trek too, so it's only natural to expect something similar happening in the 'Wars' series.
Since both of these happened years ago, that these issues are only cropping up now I just attribute to 'Fan Dumb' people not caring about history repeating itself, again.
Kordosa wrote:As for Star Trek, I know nothing about the continuity other than that each of the TV series were set a couple hundred years apart from each other.
Only the original series was like that, the others actually had episodes where the characters interacted with each other. TNG had three episodes where the original cast (Bones, Scotty and Spock) showed up and played roles in the episode. Scotty was the main character of the episode and Spock had at least a two-part dedicated to him.
Tuvok (Voyager security) was shown interacting with Kirk in his past. Vulcans are supposedly long-lived though.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:11 am

Bastion wrote:It was clear that the continuity of Trek was set as well, but that tried to be thrown out too. Just because there's suddenly a problem doesn't make it right for fans to create an uproar.
I'm pretty sure you're baiting me now with that last sentence, since not only does it seem you have disregarded what I have posted thus far, but now it seems you are making assumptions about the very varied Star Wars fanbase.
Bastion wrote:And just to point out, one of the Trek authors has created his own series that was associated with the canon. No TV show or movies at all, and I'm willing to bet that there aren't any plans to change that.
I'm honestly not exactly sure what you were trying to point out with this here. A spin-off series that plays in the same canon as Star Trek? Ok, that's cool, but I'm still lost on the relevancy.
Bastion wrote:And I use Trek examples because that's what I have knowledge of instead of Wars. I think I mentioned a third 'Star' series that I'm a fan of that underwent similar situations, but I don't know as much about that one. It had the same problems as Trek too, so it's only natural to expect something similar happening in the 'Wars' series.
Since both of these happened years ago, that these issues are only cropping up now I just attribute to 'Fan Dumb' people not caring about history repeating itself, again.
I'm calling logic failure here. The three franchises (I assume the third might be Stargate since that's the only other "Star"- series I can think of right now) are different, they came about in different ways, they are/were helmed by different people, and fans of one series might not be fans of any of the others. It is unreasonable to suggest that just because something happened to one franchise, that it would happen to another, unrelated franchise. For that matter, I have poor knowledge of Star Trek and whatever continuity problems it may have (and you were a little more brief on the details regarding it) so I cannot gauge how similar the continuity/canonicity situations between the Star Wars and Star Trek franchises are to even make an informed statement.

On the other hand, even if you didn't have much knowledge of Star Wars, I did gave links to two Wikipedia articles that should have given much of the background information you needed to understand the context of my rant/venting over the new movies (which is what this turned into due to your prodding). Mainly the articles on the sequel trilogy and on the Star Wars canon.

To reiterate, Star Wars has different levels of canonicity. When the new sequel trilogy was announced in 2012, much of the novels that would possibly conflict with the movies in the same part of the timeline were shifted to a lower level of canon (than they already were). Before that announcement, there was an extremely low chance that the new movies would ever be made, and thus, up until that point there were no major issues with the movies and novels coexisting in the same timeline. But I'm beating dead horse now...
Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:As for Star Trek, I know nothing about the continuity other than that each of the TV series were set a couple hundred years apart from each other.
Only the original series was like that, the others actually had episodes where the characters interacted with each other. TNG had three episodes where the original cast (Bones, Scotty and Spock) showed up and played roles in the episode. Scotty was the main character of the episode and Spock had at least a two-part dedicated to him.
Tuvok (Voyager security) was shown interacting with Kirk in his past. Vulcans are supposedly long-lived though.
I was under the impression that TOS took place somewhere in the 2300s, TNG a couple hundred years after that, Voyager sometime in the 2700s or 2800s, etc. (I'm not sure of the exact century for each series, and I don't feel like looking them up right now). But I never said anything to suggest that the series were in different continuities (and since I'm not a hardcore fan of Star Trek, I would have no way of knowing if they were specifically in different continuities). And I am well aware of the kind of episodes that can occur in Star Trek, so time and/or dimensional travel (or other space-time continuum-related forces, or other phenomena) would not be unheard of, and most likely (from what little I've seen), is probably part of the literary mechanics governing the Star Trek universe (in other words, compared to the Star Wars universe, the Star Trek universe probably has more leniency with alternate universes, timelines, etc. because it can actually use such plot devices within the narrative if it wants to in order to explain away inconsistencies or to allow guest star appearances by actors from a "previous" TV series).
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Cirno wrote:*sinister laugh* Winning by only 47 votes is all part of my master plan. Now everyone will think I'm weak when, in fact, I'm the strongest. And then, when they least expect it, I'll strike back and take over the entire ISML. It's foolproof. Hahahaha, I'm such a genius!
Crisu wrote:And, of course, never merge an anti-cookie with a normal cookie. Serious consequence will occur.
shiraoky wrote:I'm always squeeing lol.
Metaler wrote:Seriously, if you're gonna do something badly, then don't bother doing it. It's like when you take a dump: you don't show it to other people specifically because it's shit!
Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:15 am

Kordosa wrote:I'm pretty sure you're baiting me now with that last sentence, since not only does it seem you have disregarded what I have posted thus far, but now it seems you are making assumptions about the very varied Star Wars fanbase.
I'm wondering if you think the fandoms are any different.
Kordosa wrote:
Bastion wrote:And just to point out, one of the Trek authors has created his own series that was associated with the canon. No TV show or movies at all, and I'm willing to bet that there aren't any plans to change that.
I'm honestly not exactly sure what you were trying to point out with this here. A spin-off series that plays in the same canon as Star Trek? Ok, that's cool, but I'm still lost on the relevancy.
Pointing out that people are still able to make works that fit perfectly into the canon without changing it. I've read some of it, and the author is using canon races that might never see the screen for their strange anatomies.
Kordosa wrote:
Bastion wrote:And I use Trek examples because that's what I have knowledge of instead of Wars. I think I mentioned a third 'Star' series that I'm a fan of that underwent similar situations, but I don't know as much about that one. It had the same problems as Trek too, so it's only natural to expect something similar happening in the 'Wars' series.
Since both of these happened years ago, that these issues are only cropping up now I just attribute to 'Fan Dumb' people not caring about history repeating itself, again.
I'm calling logic failure here. The three franchises (I assume the third might be Stargate since that's the only other "Star"- series I can think of right now) are different, they came about in different ways, they are/were helmed by different people, and fans of one series might not be fans of any of the others. It is unreasonable to suggest that just because something happened to one franchise, that it would happen to another, unrelated franchise. For that matter, I have poor knowledge of Star Trek and whatever continuity problems it may have (and you were a little more brief on the details regarding it) so I cannot gauge how similar the continuity/canonicity situations between the Star Wars and Star Trek franchises are to even make an informed statement.
Considering I'm a fan of all three, and I know many others who are in a similar situation. Just because there are differences in the 'leaders' does that make historical events any less relevant to current events? There are really countless examples of this type of thing through history, I'm just focusing on the 'Star's because it's easier to discuss things when the view is limited.
Kordosa wrote:On the other hand, even if you didn't have much knowledge of Star Wars, I did gave links to two Wikipedia articles that should have given much of the background information you needed to understand the context of my rant/venting over the new movies (which is what this turned into due to your prodding). Mainly the articles on the sequel trilogy and on the Star Wars canon.
and I've pointed out continually that I have neither the means (poor computer screen) and limited time to follow such links currently. I don't need to follow those links to make informed comments because I know what's going on from past experience with the things you're trying to focus on.
Kordosa wrote:To reiterate, Star Wars has different levels of canonicity. When the new sequel trilogy was announced in 2012, much of the novels that would possibly conflict with the movies in the same part of the timeline were shifted to a lower level of canon (than they already were). Before that announcement, there was an extremely low chance that the new movies would ever be made, and thus, up until that point there were no major issues with the movies and novels coexisting in the same timeline. But I'm beating dead horse now...
You started off with the statement about them being removed from canon entirely, that's the only level of canon involved here, canon or not (ISML has the same setup, which is why I used it earlier).
Kordosa wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:As for Star Trek, I know nothing about the continuity other than that each of the TV series were set a couple hundred years apart from each other.
Only the original series was like that, the others actually had episodes where the characters interacted with each other. TNG had three episodes where the original cast (Bones, Scotty and Spock) showed up and played roles in the episode. Scotty was the main character of the episode and Spock had at least a two-part dedicated to him.
Tuvok (Voyager security) was shown interacting with Kirk in his past. Vulcans are supposedly long-lived though.
I was under the impression that TOS took place somewhere in the 2300s, TNG a couple hundred years after that, Voyager sometime in the 2700s or 2800s, etc. (I'm not sure of the exact century for each series, and I don't feel like looking them up right now). But I never said anything to suggest that the series were in different continuities (and since I'm not a hardcore fan of Star Trek, I would have no way of knowing if they were specifically in different continuities). And I am well aware of the kind of episodes that can occur in Star Trek, so time and/or dimensional travel (or other space-time continuum-related forces, or other phenomena) would not be unheard of, and most likely (from what little I've seen), is probably part of the literary mechanics governing the Star Trek universe (in other words, compared to the Star Wars universe, the Star Trek universe probably has more leniency with alternate universes, timelines, etc. because it can actually use such plot devices within the narrative if it wants to in order to explain away inconsistencies or to allow guest star appearances by actors from a "previous" TV series).
All the times, save Generations (movie which I didn't mention) nothing special happened for these events to occur, Bones was walking around the Enterprise D as a retired Admiral. There was some trickery for Scotty to appear younger, but it was still within his lifetime and Spock was on a normal mission, unaffected by anything that would have put him in special place for the episodes. There was trickery for one of the episodes of DS9, to add it to a beloved episode (and they didn't interact with the past characters), but otherwise nothing special made these things possible.
Alternate timelines/universes didn't even come up until the non-canon stuff/new movies. One of the characters who was killed off in an episode had to go back in time before she could be added back into the normal continuity (as her own daughter).
TNG, DS9 and Voyager literally happened at the same time, the characters sometimes talking about events caused by the others. One of the characters of TNG fame made the jump to DS9 when the Enterprise-D ended.
I think the Original was said to be the 21st century, but the others didn't really say, so I would guess less than a century later. Late 2200 (TOS) to 2300 seems to be all there was. One of the key events in TNG (about when the series 'Grew the Beard'?) is the start of the captain of DS9's story. I think there was a few weeks between the start of DS9 and Voyager. Half the crew of Voyager was only there because of what was going on in Season 1 of DS9!

Stargate messed up their timelines pretty bad though. And that was in the first series (of three).
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:01 am

I would like to point out that I was ready to end this discussion when I stated on Tuesday that I would probably get used to the new movies taking precedence over the pre-2014 novels if given enough time. But I'll take this opportunity to describe the important parts of the Star Wars canon from the Wikipedia article, which should finally (hopefully) clarify where I was coming from in my initial post.
On Star Wars canonShow
The highest level of Star Wars canon consists of the six released Star Wars theatrical feature films, along with the Star Wars animated film and television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels. The upcoming feature film Star Wars: The Force Awakens (along with the untitled Episode VIII and Episode IX) is also considered to be of the highest canon. The Star Wars Expanded Universe, on the other hand, is often reordered in levels of canonicity and time placement to make way for changes in the higher levels of canon.

On April 25, 2014, Lucasfilm officially revised and solidified the canon, stating that all previously released Expanded Universe works would be rebranded under the new Star Wars Legends banner, in order to ensure a flowing timeline with the release of the Star Wars sequel trilogy.
The Star Wars canon is divided into several levels:
  • G-canon (George Lucas canon): Considered absolute canon, it includes Episodes I–VI (the most recently released versions) and the upcoming Episodes VII–IX feature films, the animated film, and any statements by George Lucas. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.
  • T-canon (Television canon): Refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels
  • C-canon (Continuity canon): Consisting of materials from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. On April 25, 2014, all previously released C-Canon was officially bumped to S-Canon, and will be replaced by all-new C-Canon material.
  • S-canon (Secondary canon): Covering the same medium as C-canon, it is immediately superseded by anything in higher levels of canon in any place where two elements contradict each other. The non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe.
  • N-canon (Non-canon): "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. Any published material that contradicts things established in G-canon and T-canon is considered N-canon.
To boil it down, prior to the 2012 Disney acquisition, there were two separate continuities: Film-only continuity (maintained and followed by George Lucas himself) and Film+EU continuity (used for licensed products). With the 2014 canon-shift, there is a more definitive gap between the film canon and the EU canon (as shown by the C-canon-to-S-canon shift).
As for the sequel trilogy, it's basically what I stated before. That over the years what George Lucas has said about the plot of the sequel trilogy (and even whether or not it would actually get made) has varied widely. From 1976 to about 1981, he had mentioned vague snippets of ideas for any storylines past Return of the Jedi. But from the mid-1990s until Disney's acquisition of Lucasfilm in 2012 (which by the way, covers nearly the entirety of what has been published in the Expanded Universe that depicted events post-Return of the Jedi), George Lucas had no plans to make a sequel trilogy. So Lucas himself has changed his mind over the years.

To be more accurate, my original reaction to the trailer was partly derived from an exaggerated knee-jerk reaction to the April 2014 canon-shift. It was more or less me venting. The quoted part within the above spoiler tag is what is actually relevant.
The following is in reply to your most recent post, section by section:

I took issue with you suggesting the Star Wars fandom is in an uproar, because it seemed you based it on my own personal stance in the fandom and generalized the entire fanbase off it. There are fans who like the Original Trilogy only, those that like the prequels (yes, fans exist, mostly the younger fans whose first exposure to Star Wars were the prequels), those that like the Expanded Universe, and those that don't. And any combination in between.

As for being able to make works that fit within the canon (your Star Trek example), the Star Wars canon is much more complex than simply being canon or non-canon (as the above canon levels show). My opinion is that much of the Star Wars EU had fit with (or at least, did not contradict) the films enough that they could coexist.

I am well aware of the "history repeats itself" saying. But I was taking issue with your casual attribution of the Star Wars canon-shifting to the Star Wars fanbase not "learning from history" from the other sci-fi franchises, when you didn't seem to consider that all Star Wars fans may not be fans of other sci-fi franchises or were aware of the histories of those franchises. You can't learn from history if you never took the class before. And even so, it's not the fandom's fault that there was a canon-shift. That falls squarely on Disney for opting to make new films.

About me first stating that the EU was removed from canon, I wasn't prepared for a long, contracted debate in my earliest posts because I didn't know how long it would last (I must have forgotten who I was conversing with, obviously ;P ). Therefore some of my language may not have been exact. Either way, I do believe I used the phrase "pretend it doesn't exist" rather than it being removed entirely, and the way I used that phrase, I didn't mean it literally. Poor word choice on my part, though I guess.

As for the timeline for Star Trek, according to Wikipedia, TOS took place during the 2260s, and TNG, Voyager, and DS9 all took place during the 2360s and 2370s. Enterprise took place during the 2150s, but since you said its canonicity was thrown out (by fan disapproval?!), I'll ignore it. Like I stated before, I didn't watch enough episodes to gauge when each series individually happened, so I'm fine with being corrected on this.

The reason why I mentioned the existence of alternate dimensions/time travel/etc. as possible mechanisms for continuity adjustment was because I remember a couple of episodes where strange space-time continuum stuff occurred. It would be easy enough to use those to do pretty much whatever with the franchise, I would think. You know, space is vast and the rules of the universe aren't fully explained; that sort of thing. (Didn't one instance of the Voyager get blown up during one storyline, but another Voyager (with the same crew) from a different dimension/timeline survive?)
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Cirno wrote:*sinister laugh* Winning by only 47 votes is all part of my master plan. Now everyone will think I'm weak when, in fact, I'm the strongest. And then, when they least expect it, I'll strike back and take over the entire ISML. It's foolproof. Hahahaha, I'm such a genius!
Crisu wrote:And, of course, never merge an anti-cookie with a normal cookie. Serious consequence will occur.
shiraoky wrote:I'm always squeeing lol.
Metaler wrote:Seriously, if you're gonna do something badly, then don't bother doing it. It's like when you take a dump: you don't show it to other people specifically because it's shit!
Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:45 pm

Kordosa wrote:I am well aware of the "history repeats itself" saying. But I was taking issue with your casual attribution of the Star Wars canon-shifting to the Star Wars fanbase not "learning from history" from the other sci-fi franchises, when you didn't seem to consider that all Star Wars fans may not be fans of other sci-fi franchises or were aware of the histories of those franchises. You can't learn from history if you never took the class before. And even so, it's not the fandom's fault that there was a canon-shift. That falls squarely on Disney for opting to make new films.
I'm still trying to figure out why you're limiting this to the sci-fi genre. It's a general statement and applies equally to everything in history. In basic courses that were required to graduate you'd learn that history repeats.
Kordosa wrote:As for the timeline for Star Trek, according to Wikipedia, TOS took place during the 2260s, and TNG, Voyager, and DS9 all took place during the 2360s and 2370s. Enterprise took place during the 2150s, but since you said its canonicity was thrown out (by fan disapproval?!), I'll ignore it. Like I stated before, I didn't watch enough episodes to gauge when each series individually happened, so I'm fine with being corrected on this.
That timeline sounds more-or-less correct. I don't know when the 'key' event of the DS9 leadership happened, so I can't be all that accurate, but multi-generational was way out of the plausible range.
Kordosa wrote:The reason why I mentioned the existence of alternate dimensions/time travel/etc. as possible mechanisms for continuity adjustment was because I remember a couple of episodes where strange space-time continuum stuff occurred. It would be easy enough to use those to do pretty much whatever with the franchise, I would think. You know, space is vast and the rules of the universe aren't fully explained; that sort of thing. (Didn't one instance of the Voyager get blown up during one storyline, but another Voyager (with the same crew) from a different dimension/timeline survive?)
Yes, lots of stuff with the tearing of space/time did occur within Trek, but it never occurred to cause the characters to interact outside of their generation. The time with DS9, I'm sure there was a minor outcry about it, but the episode (both the original and the DS9 ones) were so funny and loved that it was easily overtaken. Probably to the degree of Kanade stomping a tier 7 canidate (keeping things a little relevant to the forum we're in XP)
Voyager was 'destroyed' several times, but somehow it got 'refreshed' and usually the 'new' crew had no recollection of what had gone on with the other, they tried to mess with the timeline a lot. Voyager was the precursor to Enterprise remember..

As for not being sure the sequel trilogy was going to be made, I remember similar things being said (Even by Lucas himself?) about the prequel movies. Those got made, didn't they?

Your comment is currently my major information source for Star Wars fandom, so I took it as 'sorta-fact' when you stated the issue the fandom had with the de-canonization.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:45 am

Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:I am well aware of the "history repeats itself" saying. But I was taking issue with your casual attribution of the Star Wars canon-shifting to the Star Wars fanbase not "learning from history" from the other sci-fi franchises, when you didn't seem to consider that all Star Wars fans may not be fans of other sci-fi franchises or were aware of the histories of those franchises. You can't learn from history if you never took the class before. And even so, it's not the fandom's fault that there was a canon-shift. That falls squarely on Disney for opting to make new films.
I'm still trying to figure out why you're limiting this to the sci-fi genre. It's a general statement and applies equally to everything in history. In basic courses that were required to graduate you'd learn that history repeats.
Your original comments more or less attacked the Star Wars fandom for not recognizing the historical precedent of similar events in other sci-fi fandoms, when it is unreasonable to assume that the different fanbases overlap completely.
Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:As for the timeline for Star Trek, according to Wikipedia, TOS took place during the 2260s, and TNG, Voyager, and DS9 all took place during the 2360s and 2370s. Enterprise took place during the 2150s, but since you said its canonicity was thrown out (by fan disapproval?!), I'll ignore it. Like I stated before, I didn't watch enough episodes to gauge when each series individually happened, so I'm fine with being corrected on this.
That timeline sounds more-or-less correct. I don't know when the 'key' event of the DS9 leadership happened, so I can't be all that accurate, but multi-generational was way out of the plausible range.
Kordosa wrote:The reason why I mentioned the existence of alternate dimensions/time travel/etc. as possible mechanisms for continuity adjustment was because I remember a couple of episodes where strange space-time continuum stuff occurred. It would be easy enough to use those to do pretty much whatever with the franchise, I would think. You know, space is vast and the rules of the universe aren't fully explained; that sort of thing. (Didn't one instance of the Voyager get blown up during one storyline, but another Voyager (with the same crew) from a different dimension/timeline survive?)
Yes, lots of stuff with the tearing of space/time did occur within Trek, but it never occurred to cause the characters to interact outside of their generation.
As I mentioned in my previous post, before I had looked up the actual dates for each of the TV series, I had wrongly assumed they each took place in different centuries. There is no further need to keep mentioning "multi-generational" interactions.

And the principle reason for me mentioning the space-time continuum plot devices in Star Trek was to contrast with how the Star Wars universe works, which is that there is none of that going on. Everything is linear.
Bastion wrote:Voyager was the precursor to Enterprise remember..
Production-wise, I know. (Continuity-wise, Enterprise was supposed to be the precursor to TOS by about 100 years.)
Bastion wrote:As for not being sure the sequel trilogy was going to be made, I remember similar things being said (Even by Lucas himself?) about the prequel movies. Those got made, didn't they?
But there were the coexistence of several circumstances that led them to be made. Chiefly, that the Expanded Universe proved that there was still an audience for the franchise. Secondly, CGI technology had advanced enough that Lucas felt making the films would be more feasible.
Wikipedia wrote:After losing much of his fortune in a divorce settlement in 1987, George Lucas had no desire to return to Star Wars and had unofficially canceled his sequel trilogy by the time of Return of the Jedi. Because Lucas had developed most of the backstory, the idea of prequels continued to fascinate him. In the early 1990s, Star Wars saw a resurgence in popularity in the wake of Dark Horse's comic line and Timothy Zahn's trilogy of novels. Lucas saw there was still a large audience for his idea of a prequel trilogy and with the development of special effects generated with computer-generated imagery (CGI), Lucas considered returning to his saga and directing the film. In 1993, it was announced in Variety and other sources that he would be making the prequels. Lucas began outlining the story; Anakin Skywalker rather than Obi-Wan Kenobi would be the main protagonist and the series would be a tragedy examining Darth Vader's origins. Lucas also began to change the prequels' timeline relative to the original series, "filling-in" the history, backstory, existing parallel or tangential to the originals and beginning a long story starting with Anakin's childhood and ended with his death. This was the final step towards turning the franchise into a saga.
As for the sequel trilogy, the one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that technically, George Lucas isn't making the sequel trilogy. He is merely a creative consultant on the films. He handed over the reins at Lucasfilm to longtime collaborator Kathleen Kennedy. In fact, on the Star Wars website back in 2012, there was a short video of Lucas talking about the decision to sell Lucasfilm to Disney. One of the things was that he felt Disney had enough financial security that Star Wars and other Lucasfilm properties would be safe. But the one that I think is more important when it comes to the fans, is that he had gotten tired of being ridiculed for all of the decisions he's made regarding everything post-Return of the Jedi. Fans hated the prequels, fans hated The Clone Wars animated series, etc. Basically, Lucas got so disheartened from all of the fan hate (and after the lukewarm reception of Red Tails (which chronicles the Tuskegee Airmen during World War II), that he decided he was going to quit large scale blockbuster films and go back to independent films. I was actually very saddened (and pissed off) that the fandom had gotten so bad that Lucas felt it was time to leave.
Bastion wrote:Your comment is currently my major information source for Star Wars fandom, so I took it as 'sorta-fact' when you stated the issue the fandom had with the de-canonization.
The Star Wars fandom is too diverse to point to any single individual within it and claim that that person is a good representation of the fandom as a whole. I'm probably one of the more moderate, less vocal fans. I have no particular hate for the prequels. While I do admit that some of the lines delivered might have been flat and wooden, I felt the overall story itself fit with the Original Trilogy from a logical standpoint. And Jar Jar is not as bad as people make him out to be. I actually thought the jokes/banter between C-3PO and R2-D2 were far worse than those of the original movies. The novels were fine for the most part. As for the video games, I felt they started to lose their luster around the turn of the millennium. I'd like to forget The Force Unleashed (both it and its sequel). My skepticism of the sequel trilogy is more about tempering my expectations than anything else. It's Disney, and despite how well they seemed to have handled the Marvel universe films, there's still a part of me that associates Disney with the more kid-friendly atmosphere. And while the original Star Wars movie was actually meant to be viewed as a fun Saturday matinée popcorn movie, the series got darker with The Empire Strikes Back.
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I forgot about that until halfway into the discussion. Conversing with you is always a good test of patience I suppose...
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:56 pm

Kordosa wrote:And the principle reason for me mentioning the space-time continuum plot devices in Star Trek was to contrast with how the Star Wars universe works, which is that there is none of that going on. Everything is linear.
Everything may be linear in 'Wars', but some things are not understood until preceding events are brought to light. Did we know all of the history of Anikin before the prequils? Did we (non-fans of the original) know why Khan was so hated until we actually watched that episode (I think he was only one episode) of the series? It didn't actually change anything in the story, just created some history for events to build off of.
Kordosa wrote:
Bastion wrote:As for not being sure the sequel trilogy was going to be made, I remember similar things being said (Even by Lucas himself?) about the prequel movies. Those got made, didn't they?
But there were the coexistence of several circumstances that led them to be made. Chiefly, that the Expanded Universe proved that there was still an audience for the franchise. Secondly, CGI technology had advanced enough that Lucas felt making the films would be more feasible.
As for the sequel trilogy, the one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that technically, George Lucas isn't making the sequel trilogy. He is merely a creative consultant on the films. He handed over the reins at Lucasfilm to longtime collaborator Kathleen Kennedy. In fact, on the Star Wars website back in 2012, there was a short video of Lucas talking about the decision to sell Lucasfilm to Disney. One of the things was that he felt Disney had enough financial security that Star Wars and other Lucasfilm properties would be safe. But the one that I think is more important when it comes to the fans, is that he had gotten tired of being ridiculed for all of the decisions he's made regarding everything post-Return of the Jedi. Fans hated the prequels, fans hated The Clone Wars animated series, etc. Basically, Lucas got so disheartened from all of the fan hate (and after the lukewarm reception of Red Tails (which chronicles the Tuskegee Airmen during World War II), that he decided he was going to quit large scale blockbuster films and go back to independent films. I was actually very saddened (and pissed off) that the fandom had gotten so bad that Lucas felt it was time to leave.
Considering the 'quality' of the prequels, I'm guessing that he decided to 'leave' sometime during the making of those movies, the negative reaction to the remakes of the originals started it (I remember seeing something with Lucas wearing a 'Hans shot first' shirt, standing with the fandom's outrage at that scene being changed.)
Kordosa wrote:
Bastion wrote:Your comment is currently my major information source for Star Wars fandom, so I took it as 'sorta-fact' when you stated the issue the fandom had with the de-canonization.
The Star Wars fandom is too diverse to point to any single individual within it and claim that that person is a good representation of the fandom as a whole. I'm probably one of the more moderate, less vocal fans. I have no particular hate for the prequels. While I do admit that some of the lines delivered might have been flat and wooden, I felt the overall story itself fit with the Original Trilogy from a logical standpoint. And Jar Jar is not as bad as people make him out to be. I actually thought the jokes/banter between C-3PO and R2-D2 were far worse than those of the original movies. The novels were fine for the most part. As for the video games, I felt they started to lose their luster around the turn of the millennium. I'd like to forget The Force Unleashed (both it and its sequel). My skepticism of the sequel trilogy is more about tempering my expectations than anything else. It's Disney, and despite how well they seemed to have handled the Marvel universe films, there's still a part of me that associates Disney with the more kid-friendly atmosphere. And while the original Star Wars movie was actually meant to be viewed as a fun Saturday matinée popcorn movie, the series got darker with The Empire Strikes Back.
I realize that it wasn't entirely fact, that's why I had the 'sorta' in there, same as using this forum to guage responses to a certain girl's popularity in the fandom. I agree with most of your statements though, but I blame the world-at-large for most of it. The world depresses me.
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Re: Movies

Post by Elvinsky » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:32 am

Well, if you guys are done arguing whether the new Star Wars trilogy will be awesome (not really holding my breath on that...), mediocre, or suck balls, I guess we can go back to other movies.

First off, I just came back from watching The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies. Since the annual Metro Manila Film Festival usually occurs in December, the local distributor decided to move the premiere up to December 12 to avoid the "film fest week."

Anyway...

An epic (albeit bittersweet) end to the Hobbit film trilogy, with bits of Lord of The Rings foreshadowing here and there. But thankfully, Peter Jackson does manage to tone down the ending fatigue in this movie. (It helps that there's only one book to cover.)
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I overestimated the amount of screentime Smaug was gonna get before he gets killed. It only took about eight minutes. :P

And a word of warning to those who will watch the movie: The battle between the White Council (specifically, Galadriel) and Sauron (plus the nine Ringwraiths/Nazgul) at Dol Guldur might cause some seizures for those who are epileptic (especially in 3D)...but boy, that was a nice adaptation expansion. (Whereas the book only mentions it in passing.) And the Nazgul look even meaner in their spirit forms here.
Well, I'm already used to film adaptations of books/comics (or rather, anime adaptations of light novels/manga/VNs/etc.), so changes in the adaptation (good or ill) don't bother me much as long as the story is coherent enough, the effects visually stunning, and the music downright epic. The Battle of The Five Armies delivers on all three counts.

Four and a half stars.

P.S.: If there are any nits to be picked, I'll leave that job to the guys behind CinemaSins, Honest Trailers and How It Should Have Ended.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:16 pm

Elvinsky wrote:Well, if you guys are done arguing whether the new Star Wars trilogy will be awesome (not really holding my breath on that...), mediocre, or suck balls, I guess we can go back to other movies.
I actually try to encourage others to comment on things, especially since the debates I tend to get into tend to be meaningless anyways, and I have something else for my focus to work on at the same time tends to make things more interesting.
Elvinsky wrote:First off, I just came back from watching The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies. Since the annual Metro Manila Film Festival usually occurs in December, the local distributor decided to move the premiere up to December 12 to avoid the "film fest week."
SpoilerShow
Anyway...

An epic (albeit bittersweet) end to the Hobbit film trilogy, with bits of Lord of The Rings foreshadowing here and there. But thankfully, Peter Jackson does manage to tone down the ending fatigue in this movie. (It helps that there's only one book to cover.)
book readersShow
I overestimated the amount of screentime Smaug was gonna get before he gets killed. It only took about eight minutes. :P

And a word of warning to those who will watch the movie: The battle between the White Council (specifically, Galadriel) and Sauron (plus the nine Ringwraiths/Nazgul) at Dol Guldur might cause some seizures for those who are epileptic (especially in 3D)...but boy, that was a nice adaptation expansion. (Whereas the book only mentions it in passing.) And the Nazgul look even meaner in their spirit forms here.
Well, I'm already used to film adaptations of books/comics (or rather, anime adaptations of light novels/manga/VNs/etc.), so changes in the adaptation (good or ill) don't bother me much as long as the story is coherent enough, the effects visually stunning, and the music downright epic. The Battle of The Five Armies delivers on all three counts.

Four and a half stars.

P.S.: If there are any nits to be picked, I'll leave that job to the guys behind CinemaSins, Honest Trailers and How It Should Have Ended.
I've seen decent adaptions, and horribad ones, the Ender movie was horrible (if there's ever going to be more to the great series, they're going to have to redo it), but the Pirates was good expansion on what I thought was nothing more than a basic plotline for a ride (that I didn't really even care about) but was done very well.
Still trying to figure out how a prequel book (it was even written that way) was expanded into a trilogy when they've had issues adapting full-length series (HP and the Lord of the Rings trilogy) into movie series', and I've heard that they did some pretty bad stuff to the original storyline.

The local theater is having a marathon of the previous movies before this one comes out apparently, and I'd be interested in seeing it if it were feasible.
Having read the book years ago doesn't really change that, Tolkien was a good writer.
I just hope his 'successor' (Wheel of Time) doesn't come out with movies anytime soon.
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Re: Movies

Post by Fate » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:24 am

I recently saw "Dawn of the Planet of the Apes" and "Maleficent" - both so great!
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Re: Movies

Post by Reverend » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:34 pm

and to add to my already-epic first part of 2015, this happens

Dragon Blade to premiere Feb 2015 in China (I wonder if you guys in China already know this or not)
finally, somebody got the ball to do an alter history of Ancient Roman vs Ancient China story.
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Re: Movies

Post by houreki » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:02 am

I watched Big Hero 6, What an amazing movie. It's now my second favorite animated movie made by Disney (the first one is The Lion King btw)

I didn't know what to expect since I hardly ever remember the synopsis, so I was surprised with the story (and the feels ;-;).
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Re: Movies

Post by Sedon » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:02 pm

houreki wrote:I watched Big Hero 6, What an amazing movie. It's now my second favorite animated movie made by Disney (the first one is The Lion King btw)

I didn't know what to expect since I hardly ever remember the synopsis, so I was surprised with the story (and the feels ;-;).
This reminds me that I need to watch that too.. Guess ill reserve some of my time tomorrow X)

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Re: Movies

Post by houreki » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:17 pm

Sedon wrote:
houreki wrote:I watched Big Hero 6, What an amazing movie. It's now my second favorite animated movie made by Disney (the first one is The Lion King btw)

I didn't know what to expect since I hardly ever remember the synopsis, so I was surprised with the story (and the feels ;-;).
This reminds me that I need to watch that too.. Guess ill reserve some of my time tomorrow X)
Watch it!, but wait till the end of the credits to see an extre escene =)
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:29 am

A little late posting this, but I finally went to see the third Hobbit movie back on the 6th.
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A pretty good end to the journey. Still, the movie managed to simply be a complex aesop about trusting your friends and not giving in to greed. Still a good movie. I also liked the ending scene that fast forwards to the older Bilbo. It's nice being able to put Bilbo in a different light after these films compared to the previous ones. I had the same feeling with Obi-wan Kenobi and the Star Wars prequels.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:27 pm

I've heard that the Star Wars movies 7-9 completely threw out Lucas' plans for the actual story, so there's again reason for the fandom to rage if that has any semblance of truth.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:56 pm

Bastion wrote:I've heard that the Star Wars movies 7-9 completely threw out Lucas' plans for the actual story, so there's again reason for the fandom to rage if that has any semblance of truth.
I don't feel like getting into another debate over this, but I'll simply say this: If that's indeed true, then since there's a vocal part of the fandom that hated the prequels (and whose negativity caused Lucas to basically ragequit Star Wars/movie-making in general), there's probably no love lost by that segment of the fandom who probably think Star Wars is better off without him. Once again, that's only one part of the fandom; there are probably others out there who would indeed react the way you describe.

Edit:

Ah, speaking of which, one of the previews I saw when I went to see the third Hobbit movie was the teaser for The Force Awakens. I had already seen in on Youtube, but I have to admit, experiencing the trailer in surround sound makes it a bit more impressive. At least the iconic fanfare motif still strikes a chord with fans.

The other trailers I saw were for sequels for Mad Max, The Terminator, and Jurassic World. Seriously, is Hollywood cashing in on movie nostalgia nowadays? I'm not knocking established franchises (and those trailers did make the films seem like they could be interesting), but when it seems like everyone's doing it, it just feels like a cheap way for Hollywood to make some more cash.

By the way, I've never watched any of the Mad Max or Terminator movies.

Also, I was disappointed that the dinosaurs in the Jurassic World trailer didn't have feathers. I mean seriously, science marches on, right?
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Re: Movies

Post by smartboyhw » Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:52 am

I went to watch The Imitation Game today. And...
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This movie is really one that I would recommend anybody except kids to watch. At such a time where computers dominate the world, we often forget the founder of all these things: Alan Turing. A genius at cryptology, yet bullied and untrusted. The person that perhaps saved many, many lives, but ended his life with a very, very tragic ending.

What should one do after learning secrets? Can one really pursuit after "equal rights" in the world? Is there any way that is perhaps against law to resolute unlawful issues that may do good to the whole world?

Respect. This is perhaps the most important message. "Sometimes it is the people who no one imagines anything of who do the things that no one can imagine."
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:54 am

Just watched Furious 7 today with my family.
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This was a fun movie overall. As far as the scenes with Paul Walker's character Brian goes, I couldn't really distinguish which scenes were of Paul and those that had either of his two brothers standing in with some CG magic. And it's probably a good thing since it would have been distracting. There was also a short tribute after the film with scenes of Paul's character from the previous movies in the franchise.

As far as the actual movie goes, this was probably the most over-the-top. Tyrese Gibson's character, Roman, even lampshades this by reminding the audience that the main cast had broken into a police station to steal a vault, battled a tank, and grounded a cargo plane. Among other things.This movie has the group being airdropped by plane (while inside their cars) complete with parachutes, and driving leaping a million dollar exotic sports car between three adjacent skyscrapers. There's also an armed drone that goes after them at one point. Finally, Dwayne Johnson's character, DSS agent Hobbs, goes all Rambo on a chopper with a belt-fed machine gun. Oh, and my sister tells me that some UFC champion made an appearance, but I forgot her name.

I also thought all the gratuitous bikini shots were getting kind of old (I mean, really. Do people actually walk around the streets of Abu Dhabi in bikinis? Is that normal over there?) But I guess it wouldn't be Fast & Furious if there weren't bikini babes and fast cars. (Although, Vin Diesel's character, Dominic, thought otherwise with an implied title drop.)

Anyway, what makes the franchise likable to me is the focus on close familial bonds between the main cast. In every single movie in the franchise (except for Tokyo Drift which was more of a side story), all or part of the main cast sits down and has a meal together. Which I thought made the series something different than the usual action blockbuster movies. There was a candid, down-to-earth sense to some of those scenes, with idle chatter and joking around while sharing a beer. This was something I really liked. However, while the focus on family is very direct in this movie (Brian's role as a new father, Dominic and Letty (Michelle Rodriguez's character) trying to work things out), this sense was mostly either shown through witty dialogue, mostly at Roman's expense, or referenced verbally by the characters (mostly Dominic). There was no scene of the cast in this movie of the main characters sitting down and enjoying a meal together. And while that's probably due to how the plot unfolds, I also wonder if part of the reason is that Justin Lin (who directed all of the other F&F movies) didn't this time around, or if that's just coincidence. However, I will say that Dominic's monologue in the ending scene makes for an emotional moment, since the monologue could easily be applied to Vin Diesel talking about Paul Walker, rather than the character Dominic talking about Brian. It's actually supposed to be taken that way anyway.

So overall a fun movie, if a bit over-the-top, and the near-constant reminder in the movie of Paul Walker's death sort of overshadows the in-series camaraderie among the main characters.

Anyway, I'm not sure if it would be feasible from a plot standpoint to have more sequels. Writing out Paul Walker's character (and by extension, Jordana Brewster's character, Mia who is married to Brian) for future movies kind of leaves a gaping hole in the cast line-up. Yes, four other characters have died along the way (notably Han and Giselle, but also Vince and Jesse), but Brian was a counterpart to Dominic.

As for villains, there's the possibility of the Shaws coming back later (apparently Owen ended up in a hospital according to the opening scene, and Deckard ends up in a maximum security prison), but another possibility could be Carter Verone from the second movie since he had told Roman that he'd see him soon, hinting at promised retribution. I, for one, think there shouldn't be any more sequels. From what I hear, Furious 7 has broken box office records so far, so I think they should quit while they are ahead and not risk making a mediocre follow-up sequel. I'm betting a big reason for the box office sales is to watch Paul Walker's last movie. Any sequel that follows will not have that draw, so any such sequel would have to rely solely on its own merits.
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Cirno wrote:*sinister laugh* Winning by only 47 votes is all part of my master plan. Now everyone will think I'm weak when, in fact, I'm the strongest. And then, when they least expect it, I'll strike back and take over the entire ISML. It's foolproof. Hahahaha, I'm such a genius!
Crisu wrote:And, of course, never merge an anti-cookie with a normal cookie. Serious consequence will occur.
shiraoky wrote:I'm always squeeing lol.
Metaler wrote:Seriously, if you're gonna do something badly, then don't bother doing it. It's like when you take a dump: you don't show it to other people specifically because it's shit!
Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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