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Re: Movies

Post by Elvinsky » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:19 am

It's been out for a while, but here's the full trailer for the final Hobbit movie, The Battle of The Five Armies:

For those who have read/finished the bookShow
I have a feeling Smaug will be killed within the first hour of the movie.
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Re: Movies

Post by CureRainbow » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:52 am

The Hunger Games: Mockingjay Part 1Show
Poor Katniss having to see all those dead people right in front of her eyes... Must've been too much for her to handle along with the responsibility of being the figure of rebellion. My friend who saw the movie said that she didn't feel like Katniss was acting like a hero in this movie due to how little action she took(heh, almost like how President Coin's first impression of her was...), but iunno, seeing all that can lead you to a downward spiral. Too bad the suffering doesn't end there for her...

But, they had to introduce avoxes in the second to last movie, out of any of the movies in this series they could've fucking done so? The first book introduced that before the main plot already with the redheaded girl(who they decided to axe in the movies, why the fuck), so why did they have to give it to us now? It would've been better if they just, iunno, didn't introduce that at all? It felt so pointless...

Peeta's hijacking was definitely a good cliffhanger to end on, though. Jesus, that ending scene...
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Re: Movies

Post by DarknessHid » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:02 pm

The Hunger Games: Mockingjay Part 1:Show
Jennifer Lawrence did a really good job at playing Katniss this movie.
I had initial doubts about the book being split into two parts, but I had thought the book was a bit rushed and confusing, so I'm impressed with how the 1st half turned out.
I'm a little sad that Finnick didn't get as much screen time as he deserved though... ):

But even though I knew what was going to happen, I still grimaced when Katniss first saw the remains of District 12 and shrieked when Peeta attacked Katniss. Again, I feel like the Hunger Games series is better as a movie than a book.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:42 am

So, yeah. I had forgotten Mockingjay Part 1 came out on my birthday until my sister brought it up on my birthday last Friday... And I just got back from seeing it.

Also, as a note, I haven't read any of the books.
The Hunger Games: Mockingjay Part 1Show
When I think back to how the series started to where the story is now, it seems believable for Katniss to still falter at times. Most people who come from humble beginnings usually aren't prepared for larger-than-life events like these, and the few that are, are the ones that become known as heroes. Good writing involves being able to balance both extremes in order for the characters to be relatable. There were several parts in this movie where Katniss falters, and at one point, outright wants to dismiss the call. At other times, she is proactive, like with her role at the hospital. And there are other points in the previous two movies as well.

As far as the movie itself goes, I thought it was okay. The plot progression made sense, and some of the scenes were powerful. Although, I will admit that because I'm not a fan of the books (nor a diehard fan of the movies), there were a couple of secondary characters that I had to struggle to remember. Not with who they were, but more of what their contributions to the story were. And it's only been six months since I watched the previous film. Take that for what you will.

And now I'm interested to see how the scenes involving Philip Seymour Hoffman are handled in the last film since there were a few scenes involving him that had yet to be completed when he died earlier this year. I read an article that certain camera techniques and CG were going to be involved, but I'm still wondering how the finished movie will look.

And finally, the ever evolving Mockingjay logo after the credits finish rolling to promote the next movie. Speaking of which, I found it amusing that the same logo promoting the movies was the same logo used in the movie's propaganda of Katniss.
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Re: Movies

Post by RichardJoash » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:00 pm

I'm going to watch Penguins Of Madagascar, which I am looking forward to.
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Re: Movies

Post by Fate » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:53 pm

Recently saw 300 the sequel, Godzilla, Maleficent, X-Men: Days of Future Past and the Secret Life of Walter MItty.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:32 pm


First impressionShow
I'm trying to be optimistic about this, but all I see is an indiscriminate cash grab by Disney here. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1995 and this teaser trailer smacks of Disney trying to appeal to the Original Trilogy fans... X-wings. Check. TIE Fighters. Check. What appears to be the Millennium Falcon. Check. What appears to be stormtroopers. Check. What appears to be Tatooine (what other desert planets are featured in the movies?). Check.

I won't go so far as to say Star Wars is Ruined Forever, but I'm not optimistic. I'll need to see more to be convinced.

Also, the Millennium Falcon (if that really is her and not some other Corellian YT-1300) looks ever so slightly more flattened than I remember her from the Original Trilogy.

And seriously, let's not come up with more nonsensical lightsaber designs....
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:08 am

Kordosa wrote:
First impressionShow
I'm trying to be optimistic about this, but all I see is an indiscriminate cash grab by Disney here. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1995 and this teaser trailer smacks of Disney trying to appeal to the Original Trilogy fans... X-wings. Check. TIE Fighters. Check. What appears to be the Millennium Falcon. Check. What appears to be stormtroopers. Check. What appears to be Tatooine (what other desert planets are featured in the movies?). Check.

I won't go so far as to say Star Wars is Ruined Forever, but I'm not optimistic. I'll need to see more to be convinced.

Also, the Millennium Falcon (if that really is her and not some other Corellian YT-1300) looks ever so slightly more flattened than I remember her from the Original Trilogy.

And seriously, let's not come up with more nonsensical lightsaber designs....
You do realize that these movies were 'planned' back when the originals came out and it's Lucas' intention that they occur directly after the original trilogy, so all your complaints make a huge amount of sense. It's even supposed to have the original actors for Hans, Luke and Leia in it.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:53 am

Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:
First impressionShow
I'm trying to be optimistic about this, but all I see is an indiscriminate cash grab by Disney here. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1995 and this teaser trailer smacks of Disney trying to appeal to the Original Trilogy fans... X-wings. Check. TIE Fighters. Check. What appears to be the Millennium Falcon. Check. What appears to be stormtroopers. Check. What appears to be Tatooine (what other desert planets are featured in the movies?). Check.

I won't go so far as to say Star Wars is Ruined Forever, but I'm not optimistic. I'll need to see more to be convinced.

Also, the Millennium Falcon (if that really is her and not some other Corellian YT-1300) looks ever so slightly more flattened than I remember her from the Original Trilogy.

And seriously, let's not come up with more nonsensical lightsaber designs....
You do realize that these movies were 'planned' back when the originals came out and it's Lucas' intention that they occur directly after the original trilogy, so all your complaints make a huge amount of sense. It's even supposed to have the original actors for Hans, Luke and Leia in it.
George Lucas has flip-flopped several times over the past few decades on whether or not there would be a sequel trilogy. It just so happens that when Disney bought Lucasfilm, they acquired Lucas' drafts for his ideas for them. And Disney being Disney, they're likely going to milk this franchise for all that it's worth, with no regard on if they cheapen it along the way. In addition to the planned sequel movies, they're adding a few standalone movies as well. How blatant is that?

The sequel trilogy is set 30 years after the end of Return of the Jedi. That's an entire generation. Given how much the galaxy changed between the Prequel Trilogy and the Original Trilogy, one might expect the Sequel Trilogy to present a galaxy that has also changed. If the Rebels had successfully freed the galaxy from the Empire at Endor, then shouldn't they be in charge of the galaxy's new government 30 years later? The Expanded Universe novels depicted this with no issues (yes, I'm aware that all of the 100+ Expanded Universe novels are now considered non-canon). But then we see what appears to be vintage TIE Fighters, not to mention the classic X-wing model (the Incom T-65B). For the TIE Fighter issue, granted, there may be scattered groups of the Empire remaining (collectively known as the Imperial Remnant in the EU novels), which would explain the presence of the TIE Fighters and what appeared to be Imperial troops, but their influence is limited to a few sectors of space. Think of them like what Russia is today compared to the old Soviet Union. As for the X-wings, one would expect the Rebel's new government to update their military once they became legitimate and established an economy. Unless those are supposed to be piloted by freelancers/pirates/etc, (but the close-up shot of one of the pilots sporting the emblem of the Rebel Alliance on the helmet makes me doubt that).

To me, the presence of these vintage starfighters screams blatant cash grab via the nostalgia factor to hook Original Trilogy fans.

But I'm really getting ahead of myself. This is a teaser trailer that tells nothing about the plot (other than the Force apparently took a 30-year nap instead of Luke creating a Jedi academy like in the EU novels). I'll attempt to withhold further judgment until the actual plot is known, but like I stated before, I am not optimistic.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:21 am

Kordosa wrote:George Lucas has flip-flopped several times over the past few decades on whether or not there would be a sequel trilogy. It just so happens that when Disney bought Lucasfilm, they acquired Lucas' drafts for his ideas for them. And Disney being Disney, they're likely going to milk this franchise for all that it's worth, with no regard on if they cheapen it along the way. In addition to the planned sequel movies, they're adding a few standalone movies as well. How blatant is that?
He might have flip-flopped about them being made into movies, but they were books before the original movies were made I believe.
Kordosa wrote:The sequel trilogy is set 30 years after the end of Return of the Jedi. That's an entire generation. Given how much the galaxy changed between the Prequel Trilogy and the Original Trilogy, one might expect the Sequel Trilogy to present a galaxy that has also changed. If the Rebels had successfully freed the galaxy from the Empire at Endor, then shouldn't they be in charge of the galaxy's new government 30 years later?
'7,8 and 9' have been in the storyline for years, and they happened in the cleanup of the fall of the empire. Before the rebels actually took control, thus the rebel X and Y wings were the standard Rebels, and the Falcon was still around and the empire still would be using their TIEs. And the stormtroopers that were standard of the originals. This isn't Expanded Universe time, this is Lucas' original writings.
Kordosa wrote:To me, the presence of these vintage starfighters screams blatant cash grab via the nostalgia factor to hook Original Trilogy fans.

But I'm really getting ahead of myself. This is a teaser trailer that tells nothing about the plot (other than the Force apparently took a 30-year nap instead of Luke creating a Jedi academy like in the EU novels). I'll attempt to withhold further judgment until the actual plot is known, but like I stated before, I am not optimistic.
The plot has been known, this is what it was always, it's stuff from before the EU took over (and apparently got de-cannonized), from before the empire actually fell (so far only the two leaders have fallen) empires don't disappear because you cut off the head, some of it was actually hinted at in the original, I'd guess that's what the EU books got into (never have gotten into them).
There's, what, two generations (Anikin and Luke?) in the original nine stories. Then it gets into other stuff that the EU probably got into.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:39 am

Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:George Lucas has flip-flopped several times over the past few decades on whether or not there would be a sequel trilogy. It just so happens that when Disney bought Lucasfilm, they acquired Lucas' drafts for his ideas for them. And Disney being Disney, they're likely going to milk this franchise for all that it's worth, with no regard on if they cheapen it along the way. In addition to the planned sequel movies, they're adding a few standalone movies as well. How blatant is that?
He might have flip-flopped about them being made into movies, but they were books before the original movies were made I believe.
They were unpublished drafts, not even close to screenplay-ready; more like rough plot outlines. Refer back to the link to the Wikipedia article on the sequel trilogy I linked to in my last post.
Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:The sequel trilogy is set 30 years after the end of Return of the Jedi. That's an entire generation. Given how much the galaxy changed between the Prequel Trilogy and the Original Trilogy, one might expect the Sequel Trilogy to present a galaxy that has also changed. If the Rebels had successfully freed the galaxy from the Empire at Endor, then shouldn't they be in charge of the galaxy's new government 30 years later?
'7,8 and 9' have been in the storyline for years, and they happened in the cleanup of the fall of the empire. Before the rebels actually took control, thus the rebel X and Y wings were the standard Rebels, and the Falcon was still around and the empire still would be using their TIEs. And the stormtroopers that were standard of the originals. This isn't Expanded Universe time, this is Lucas' original writings.
Kordosa wrote:To me, the presence of these vintage starfighters screams blatant cash grab via the nostalgia factor to hook Original Trilogy fans.

But I'm really getting ahead of myself. This is a teaser trailer that tells nothing about the plot (other than the Force apparently took a 30-year nap instead of Luke creating a Jedi academy like in the EU novels). I'll attempt to withhold further judgment until the actual plot is known, but like I stated before, I am not optimistic.
The plot has been known, this is what it was always, it's stuff from before the EU took over (and apparently got de-cannonized), from before the empire actually fell (so far only the two leaders have fallen) empires don't disappear because you cut off the head, some of it was actually hinted at in the original, I'd guess that's what the EU books got into (never have gotten into them).
There's, what, two generations (Anikin and Luke?) in the original nine stories. Then it gets into other stuff that the EU probably got into.
And where exactly did you get this information? Aside from rumors, and hoaxes, no one knows what was to be included in the sequel trilogy if it ever got produced. Also, since most of what Lucas wrote back in the 60s and 70s were really rough ideas to begin with, the actual resulting Original and Prequel Trilogies switched various things around from the original ideas. Lucas has the tendency to change his mind on things, so I highly doubt that the story treatments he had in 2012 (again see the Wikipedia article) were anything like his original ideas from decades before. Therefore, there's no reason to think the new movies will follow those original writings. For that matter, the movies are set to take place 30 years after Return of the Jedi, so it would have been feasible for the Rebels to have already established at least a nominal government in the inner regions.

For my own amusement, here is the general gist of what the Expanded Universe depicted post-Return of the Jedi (mostly from memory, and probably not in exact chronological order).
A bulk of the EU novels covers this period (immediately after Return of the Jedi to about 40 years after Return of the Jedi), covering either galaxy-wide conflicts, or more individual stories following certain characters, and can be organized chronologically with each novel more or less taking place each year.
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  • The novel Truce at Bakura covers events days after those of Return of the Jedi. The Rebels received a distress signal from Imperial forces who were being attacked by an alien race called the Ssi-ruuk (who used other living beings to power their ships). A truce was made between the Rebels and these forces until this threat was dealt with.
  • The Rebels establish the New Republic within 2 to 4 years of the destruction of the second Death Star at Endor.
  • The New Republic battles the various scattered remnants of the Empire over a period of 8 to 12 years or so. Various Imperial Admirals, Moffs, etc., started to consolidate their individual holdings in various regions of the galaxy, from the Core Worlds to the Outer Rim, and beyond. Much infighting among these splinter groups took place.
  • The more notable of these Imperial "warlords" were Zsinj, Ysanne Isard, Grand Admiral Thrawn, and Admiral Daala, each of whom led individual campaigns against the New Republic at different times.
  • In addition, there was much fighting among what remained of the Imperial bureaucracy, with Sate Pestage, Carnor Jax, and others attempting to seize political power (this also includes Isard from above).
  • The most significant splinter group was salvaged from Thrawn's fleet by Thrawn's vice admiral, Pelleaon, after Thrawn was assassinated. Pelleaon later garnered enough respect among the other scattered remains that he founded the Imperial Remnant, which later became recognized as a legitimate entity by the New Republic.
  • Meanwhile, the New Republic experienced several growing pains. Aside from conflicts with the Imperial Remnant, political incidents occurred, the most significant being the Caamas Document Crisis, which nearly imploded the New Republic.
  • The New Republic had several leaders, the more notable being Mon Mothma, Leia Organa Solo, and Borsk Fey'la.
  • The most significant threat the New Republic (and the galaxy at large) faced, was the invasion by the Yuuzhan Vong, a humanoid race of warriors from outside the galaxy.
  • The New Republic was replaced by the Galactic Alliance about 25 years after the events of Return of the Jedi, and included most of the galaxy (including the aforementioned Imperial Remnant, as well as the Hapes Consortium, and the Chiss Ascendancy).
  • Concerning the Jedi, about five years after the events of Return of the Jedi, Luke Skywalker establishes a Jedi Praxeum on Yavin IV to find and train other Jedi.
  • This stirs up various other Force-related factions over the ensuing years, most of which were affiliated with the Dark Side.
  • As of 30 years after Return of the Jedi, there are hundreds of Jedi throughout the galaxy (compare this to the era of the late Galactic Republic during prequels where there were thousands of Jedi).
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Cirno wrote:*sinister laugh* Winning by only 47 votes is all part of my master plan. Now everyone will think I'm weak when, in fact, I'm the strongest. And then, when they least expect it, I'll strike back and take over the entire ISML. It's foolproof. Hahahaha, I'm such a genius!
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Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:14 pm

Kordosa wrote:And where exactly did you get this information? Aside from rumors, and hoaxes, no one knows what was to be included in the sequel trilogy if it ever got produced. Also, since most of what Lucas wrote back in the 60s and 70s were really rough ideas to begin with, the actual resulting Original and Prequel Trilogies switched various things around from the original ideas. Lucas has the tendency to change his mind on things, so I highly doubt that the story treatments he had in 2012 (again see the Wikipedia article) were anything like his original ideas from decades before. Therefore, there's no reason to think the new movies will follow those original writings. For that matter, the movies are set to take place 30 years after Return of the Jedi, so it would have been feasible for the Rebels to have already established at least a nominal government in the inner regions.
I got the information back from when the original prequel movies were coming out (or even before that), and since I'm on the Trek side of the world, it was just stuff I happened upon and had no special connections to find.
I'm not sure what that Wikia might have, but the basic plot for all of the movies has been available for decades. It's probably saying that they don't know exactly what's going to happen (did anyone know that Chewbacca was in the original prequels?)
Tatooine was always depicted as an outlying colony even in the prequels, it's not unfeasible that things haven't really changed yet out there.
There's a lot of things to set up even a puppet government, maybe we'll get a sense that things are moving closer to the center of the galaxy?
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:00 am

Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:And where exactly did you get this information? Aside from rumors, and hoaxes, no one knows what was to be included in the sequel trilogy if it ever got produced. Also, since most of what Lucas wrote back in the 60s and 70s were really rough ideas to begin with, the actual resulting Original and Prequel Trilogies switched various things around from the original ideas. Lucas has the tendency to change his mind on things, so I highly doubt that the story treatments he had in 2012 (again see the Wikipedia article) were anything like his original ideas from decades before. Therefore, there's no reason to think the new movies will follow those original writings. For that matter, the movies are set to take place 30 years after Return of the Jedi, so it would have been feasible for the Rebels to have already established at least a nominal government in the inner regions.
I got the information back from when the original prequel movies were coming out (or even before that), and since I'm on the Trek side of the world, it was just stuff I happened upon and had no special connections to find.
I'm not sure what that Wikia might have, but the basic plot for all of the movies has been available for decades. It's probably saying that they don't know exactly what's going to happen (did anyone know that Chewbacca was in the original prequels?)
Tatooine was always depicted as an outlying colony even in the prequels, it's not unfeasible that things haven't really changed yet out there.
There's a lot of things to set up even a puppet government, maybe we'll get a sense that things are moving closer to the center of the galaxy?
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SuperShadow is the alias of a Star Wars fan who ran SuperShadow.com, a website that fabricated insider knowledge and claimed that SuperShadow was a close personal friend of George Lucas, and one of the leading Star Wars fan experts in history.[1] According to a Whois search on GoDaddy.com, the SuperShadow domain is owned by Mickey Suttle. Despite the valid domain name,[2] the website has since gone offline.[3]

When the website was online, SuperShadow would often post so-called Star Wars news, images, FAQs, spoilers, and even plot outlines for future Star Wars films, many of which he claimed originated from George Lucas.[4] This led to enough controversy that Lucasfilm's Pablo Hidalgo commented in Star Wars Insider 90, released in October 2006, that SuperShadow had "absolutely no relationship with Lucasfilm or George Lucas" and that the information on the site "are complete fabrications." Hidalgo also revealed that Lucasfilm had "taken action against the site several times when it" solicited money from fans "under false pretenses."
"The site and the person who runs it, have absolutely no relationship with Lucasfilm or George Lucas. The person who runs it has never met nor talked to George Lucas. So-called information, 'scoops', and interviews on the site are complete fabrications. Lucasfilm has taken action against the site several times when it has attempted to solicit fans' money under false pretenses."
―Pablo Hidalgo
^ I actually remember SuperShadow being discussed in the Star Wars forums, back when the website still had a forum.

Basically, unless you got the information from StarWars.com, or from an actual Lucasfilm employee who would actually be in a position to know, then what you most likely found were fan speculations or rumors. The previous Wikipedia article on the sequel trilogy I mentioned before had a bulleted list of possible things to appear in the sequel trilogy based on things Lucas has said in past interviews and such, but like I mentioned before, Lucas has a tendency to change his mind on things, so even coming from him, there's no guarantee (at least not until the final screenplay). For instance, Boba Fett who appeared in The Empire Strikes Back was intended to be more of a background character and if I remember correctly, wasn't even originally planned to appear in Return of the Jedi, but the character gained popularity and so Lucas wrote him in. If not for that, the character of Jango Fett in the prequels might not have existed and the origin of the clone army might have been different.

Going from rough plot outline to final screenplay is never set in stone. It's an ongoing iterative process and it's only natural for things to change, get added, or dropped as things go along.

My guess on Chewbacca showing up in Revenge of the Sith was that Lucas simply took advantage of Chewbacca's age (over 200 years old) in order to include him. Hence one of the final battles taking place on the Wookiee homeworld of Kashyyyk.

You are correct on the Tatooine theory. It's in the Outer Rim Territories, far from the galactic core. And if the Rebels were pushing toward the Core to take Coruscant (the galactic capital), it would make sense that expanding outward would take some time. But taking 30 years for news to not have traveled to Tatooine is stretching it a bit. There was also the short scene showing Tatooine celebrating at the end of Return of the Jedi. So news of the victory should have gotten there. Based on what I've read (probably from an interview with a chronology expert at Lucasfilm in the official magazine, Star Wars Insider, physical travel via hyperspace between Tatooine and Alderaan (which is where Han was trying to take Luke and Obi-wan in A New Hope) is about a couple of weeks. Alderaan is in the Core near Coruscant so that would have been reasonable. I would say within a month. So bottom line is that the news should have reached Tatooine even if the presence of the new government wasn't yet manifested there. Still, 30 years is pushing it, at least compared to the rate that was depicted in the EU.

Edit: The bottom line is that I'm not happy that Disney decided to casually toss out the canonicity of the Expanded Universe (as tenuous as it was), especially since Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy kicked off a resurgence of interest in the franchise in 1991. That's 23 years, and over 110+ novels published by professional authors hired to write them. Up until it was announced the EU would not be canon, the EU had its own level of canonicity that while still lower than the movie canon level, was still viable as long as it did not contradict the movies. There's a Wikipedia article on the different levels of canon and what Lucas has said over the years here. Disney throwing it out altogether is like a slap in the face to the fans who grew up on the Expanded Universe who used it as a supplement to the movies. Now those fans (and I'm one of them) are expected to pretend like all of those novels never existed.
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Cirno wrote:*sinister laugh* Winning by only 47 votes is all part of my master plan. Now everyone will think I'm weak when, in fact, I'm the strongest. And then, when they least expect it, I'll strike back and take over the entire ISML. It's foolproof. Hahahaha, I'm such a genius!
Crisu wrote:And, of course, never merge an anti-cookie with a normal cookie. Serious consequence will occur.
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Metaler wrote:Seriously, if you're gonna do something badly, then don't bother doing it. It's like when you take a dump: you don't show it to other people specifically because it's shit!
Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:15 pm

Kordosa wrote:Edit: The bottom line is that I'm not happy that Disney decided to casually toss out the canonicity of the Expanded Universe (as tenuous as it was), especially since Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy kicked off a resurgence of interest in the franchise in 1991. That's 23 years, and over 110+ novels published by professional authors hired to write them. Up until it was announced the EU would not be canon, the EU had its own level of canonicity that while still lower than the movie canon level, was still viable as long as it did not contradict the movies. There's a Wikipedia article on the different levels of canon and what Lucas has said over the years here. Disney throwing it out altogether is like a slap in the face to the fans who grew up on the Expanded Universe who used it as a supplement to the movies. Now those fans (and I'm one of them) are expected to pretend like all of those novels never existed.
Claiming that the EU had any level of canonicity was faulty from the beginning, and part of the reason I never got into reading those books. The Trek books actually followed (and sometimes included) canon events from the series', so they built up the story.
I can go on believing that neither series' books ever existed and still enjoy the stories told.
It's the same with the forum here, the manga and other sources that the anime might be based on don't count for anything in determining anything in the rules for the characters (Athena wasn't available as a nominee for at least a year or two after she was introduced in the manga, despite the huge support for her, because it took that long for her character to appear in the anime. Which didn't do anything for her IMO).
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:56 pm

Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:Edit: The bottom line is that I'm not happy that Disney decided to casually toss out the canonicity of the Expanded Universe (as tenuous as it was), especially since Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy kicked off a resurgence of interest in the franchise in 1991. That's 23 years, and over 110+ novels published by professional authors hired to write them. Up until it was announced the EU would not be canon, the EU had its own level of canonicity that while still lower than the movie canon level, was still viable as long as it did not contradict the movies. There's a Wikipedia article on the different levels of canon and what Lucas has said over the years here. Disney throwing it out altogether is like a slap in the face to the fans who grew up on the Expanded Universe who used it as a supplement to the movies. Now those fans (and I'm one of them) are expected to pretend like all of those novels never existed.
Claiming that the EU had any level of canonicity was faulty from the beginning, and part of the reason I never got into reading those books. The Trek books actually followed (and sometimes included) canon events from the series', so they built up the story.
I can go on believing that neither series' books ever existed and still enjoy the stories told.
It's the same with the forum here, the manga and other sources that the anime might be based on don't count for anything in determining anything in the rules for the characters (Athena wasn't available as a nominee for at least a year or two after she was introduced in the manga, despite the huge support for her, because it took that long for her character to appear in the anime. Which didn't do anything for her IMO).
If you had actually read that Wikipedia article I linked to, you would have seen that Lucasfilm actually did give the EU a level of canonicity. Like I said before, as long as none of the novels contradicted what was depicted in the films, their canonicity was viable, albeit lower than the films. There exists a canon hierarchy with details of each media release (regardless of format) checked against details of previously released material and then categorized accordingly.

And your comparison to ISML is not the same thing. That has to do with simply eligibility. And it's clear cut. Anime appearance or ineligible (plus other considerations). And this is done only as a way to keep the tournament manageable for the Staff. No one is denying the existence of any source material or of the affects they might have on actual voting.

Lucasfilm, on the other hand, has cultivated an immense database of all licensed works over the last couple of decades and has worked to solve continuity issues either by retconning or other means. Those that were not able to be resolved were simply given a lower level of canonicity.

I guess the issue is that the new movies are set right in the middle of a rather late portion of the EU (at 30 years after the Original Trilogy), and since the novels extended from immediately after Return of the Jedi to about 40 years after it (again, with each novel taking place about every year within the timeline), all of those events are now in direct possible contradiction with the new movies. But hell, who figured that Episodes VII through IX would ever get produced? Like I said before, Lucas has changed his mind so many times over the years that it was nowhere near definite. This is just Disney being Disney, trying to cash in as much as they can. So I understand the reasoning for throwing out the EU, but I don't have to like it.
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Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:12 am

Kordosa wrote:Lucasfilm, on the other hand, has cultivated an immense database of all licensed works over the last couple of decades and has worked to solve continuity issues either by retconning or other means. Those that were not able to be resolved were simply given a lower level of canonicity.

I guess the issue is that the new movies are set right in the middle of a rather late portion of the EU (at 30 years after the Original Trilogy), and since the novels extended from immediately after Return of the Jedi to about 40 years after it (again, with each novel taking place about every year within the timeline), all of those events are now in direct possible contradiction with the new movies. But hell, who figured that Episodes VII through IX would ever get produced? Like I said before, Lucas has changed his mind so many times over the years that it was nowhere near definite. This is just Disney being Disney, trying to cash in as much as they can. So I understand the reasoning for throwing out the EU, but I don't have to like it.
The comparison is accurate, the EU of Star Wars is the only universe I've ever heard of that had these issues, the Trek books have the same thing done to them (I've been to the website) and there's very strict guidelines as to what the writers can and can't do, there's probably double the 'official' books that didn't follow those rules in Trek and so they were cast out. They even cast out an entire 'series' of Trek show because it couldn't follow the rules badly enough that they had to be stopped (Enterprise was supposed to be a prequel series, everyone knew it failed, and it was cast out finally).
If this kind of thing is happening in the Star Wars Universe, this is at least the third time I've heard of something like this going on, it's nothing new. Some authors probably prohibited 'fan'books from being produced to try and prevent this from going on.
We knew these things were going to happen, it was just a question of how, and it seems that now we've somewhat got our answer.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:41 am

Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:Lucasfilm, on the other hand, has cultivated an immense database of all licensed works over the last couple of decades and has worked to solve continuity issues either by retconning or other means. Those that were not able to be resolved were simply given a lower level of canonicity.

I guess the issue is that the new movies are set right in the middle of a rather late portion of the EU (at 30 years after the Original Trilogy), and since the novels extended from immediately after Return of the Jedi to about 40 years after it (again, with each novel taking place about every year within the timeline), all of those events are now in direct possible contradiction with the new movies. But hell, who figured that Episodes VII through IX would ever get produced? Like I said before, Lucas has changed his mind so many times over the years that it was nowhere near definite. This is just Disney being Disney, trying to cash in as much as they can. So I understand the reasoning for throwing out the EU, but I don't have to like it.
The comparison is accurate, the EU of Star Wars is the only universe I've ever heard of that had these issues, the Trek books have the same thing done to them (I've been to the website) and there's very strict guidelines as to what the writers can and can't do, there's probably double the 'official' books that didn't follow those rules in Trek and so they were cast out. They even cast out an entire 'series' of Trek show because it couldn't follow the rules badly enough that they had to be stopped (Enterprise was supposed to be a prequel series, everyone knew it failed, and it was cast out finally).
If this kind of thing is happening in the Star Wars Universe, this is at least the third time I've heard of something like this going on, it's nothing new. Some authors probably prohibited 'fan'books from being produced to try and prevent this from going on.
We knew these things were going to happen, it was just a question of how, and it seems that now we've somewhat got our answer.
There had been no major issues with canon or continuity before Disney acquired Lucasfilm. And it wasn't until the new movies were announced that there were going to be any issues at all. Except for very specific cases of Lucas stepping in to ask something specific of a certain work (for instance, for the Republic Commando video game that came out in 2005, he suggested that the clone commandos have colored decals to connect to the colored decals present on the clones in Revenge of the Sith), Lucas was very much hands off when it came to the direction of the novels. The only things off limits were the death of a major character from one of the movies (Chewbacca's death near the beginning of the New Jedi Order series of novels is still somewhat controversial among fans), and certain aspects and back stories for certain characters. Palpatine's backstory was off-limits until the novel Darth Plagueis was released. Much of the EU focused on the post-Return of the Jedi timeline, likely because there was no indication that Lucas would make Episodes VII through IX (at one point, he had stated that he was only making the six). Anything pre-A New Hope was off-limits until the prequels actually came out, during which tie-in novels either leading up to or directly proceeding each of the movies were published. The rest of the EU has to do with either ancient history, far removed from the movies (between 5000 to 250 years before The Phantom Menace) or over 130 years after Return of the Jedi. If the sequel trilogy had never been announced, then there wouldn't have been any issues at all. Now much of the EU has been reshuffled and likened to an "alternate universe" to the movie canon, whereas before, both could conceivably exist in the same universe simultaneously.

It'll probably take me a while, but I'll probably get used to it. If worst comes to worst, I can always pretend the new movies don't exist, just like fans exclusively of the Original Trilogy can pretend the prequels don't exist.
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Cirno wrote:*sinister laugh* Winning by only 47 votes is all part of my master plan. Now everyone will think I'm weak when, in fact, I'm the strongest. And then, when they least expect it, I'll strike back and take over the entire ISML. It's foolproof. Hahahaha, I'm such a genius!
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Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:57 pm

Kordosa wrote:There had been no major issues with canon or continuity before Disney acquired Lucasfilm. And it wasn't until the new movies were announced that there were going to be any issues at all.
Given that I knew there were major issues a long time ago, Disney had nothing to do with the problems.

The issues with Trek weren't even with the original creator, 'Enterprise' didn't even start until after Rodenberry was dead, pretty sure DS9 and Voyager were on the table and he knew about them, and seemingly said ok, despite being against the premise they used originally (operating in the same timeline as TNG). Trek's eventual solution seemed to be creating it's own official timeline, separate from the original.
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Re: Movies

Post by Kordosa » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:16 am

Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:There had been no major issues with canon or continuity before Disney acquired Lucasfilm. And it wasn't until the new movies were announced that there were going to be any issues at all.
Given that I knew there were major issues a long time ago, Disney had nothing to do with the problems.
I'm glad to know you were on top of things all this time. Perhaps you should have been a consultant for Lucasfilm back then. /sarcasm
Bastion wrote:The issues with Trek weren't even with the original creator, 'Enterprise' didn't even start until after Rodenberry was dead, pretty sure DS9 and Voyager were on the table and he knew about them, and seemingly said ok, despite being against the premise they used originally (operating in the same timeline as TNG). Trek's eventual solution seemed to be creating it's own official timeline, separate from the original.
As for Star Trek, I'm rather ambivalent about its continuity issues since I could hardly be called even a casual fan. I've watched and enjoyed a dozen or so episodes of Voyager, and I've seen a few episodes of TNG, TOS, and Enterprise, but that's about it.
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Cirno wrote:*sinister laugh* Winning by only 47 votes is all part of my master plan. Now everyone will think I'm weak when, in fact, I'm the strongest. And then, when they least expect it, I'll strike back and take over the entire ISML. It's foolproof. Hahahaha, I'm such a genius!
Crisu wrote:And, of course, never merge an anti-cookie with a normal cookie. Serious consequence will occur.
shiraoky wrote:I'm always squeeing lol.
Metaler wrote:Seriously, if you're gonna do something badly, then don't bother doing it. It's like when you take a dump: you don't show it to other people specifically because it's shit!
Kordosa wrote:Protip: If a male high school student character is voiced by a female seiyuu, there is a 100% probability that that character will be forced to crossdress at some point.
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Re: Movies

Post by Bastion » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:50 am

Kordosa wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Kordosa wrote:There had been no major issues with canon or continuity before Disney acquired Lucasfilm. And it wasn't until the new movies were announced that there were going to be any issues at all.
Given that I knew there were major issues a long time ago, Disney had nothing to do with the problems.
I'm glad to know you were on top of things all this time. Perhaps you should have been a consultant for Lucasfilm back then. /sarcasm
My point being that the most casual fan (which you admit you are of the Trek franchise) knew of the problems. Thus making my point that you're bringing up problems you knew existed and just didn't care until now.
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