Most hated characters

Discuss any anime in general, ISML or not. Please be mindful of spoilers and use spoiler tags!
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Bastion » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:50 pm

Kurogarasu wrote:Mary sues are characters who are overly perfect, to the point that it's unrealistic or annoying. Even if the back stories of a character don't contain angst or is edgy, trying to justify how a character is so perfect, they have no faults, is in itself a trait of Mary sues. Nobody is perfect. Nothing in this world can properly explain the lack of faults in a character. Even if her actions are justified, that does not give her a free pass to be a perfect being with no flaws
By that definition then, she isn't a Mary Sue. She isn't perfect, but she acts that way and many see her as such because they don't know what's going on behind her eyes.

She's a Mary Sue the same way Belldandy of Oh My Goddess is one. That's the face they show everyone, but behind the mask is quite a broken character.
SpoilerShow
Hinagiku is similar, she has been letting down the mask, but is still pretty Sue-ish.
Generally, characters of short-lived series are the most at risk, because the story doesn't carry on long enough to let them have a backstory. I'm amused at how many of these types of characters would seriously fall apart if pushed to the edge (not over mind) of a cliff.

Would you call Shana a Mary Sue before her history was revealed?

I believe the correct trope for Belldandy and Asuna and many other 'perfect waifu's' is another one (which I can't think of the name of right now _-_) They're supposed to act like that because that's how 'women are supposed to act'. In Asuna's case, they needed to do that in a swords-fighting arena, which meant they had to throw the other aspects in.

I'm actually about to get to the battle where Orihime (Bleach) gets extremely annoying, so I just remembered I disliked her, and I don't think anyone would disagree with this statement. No other character gets quite so annoying so quickly; she was actually kinda likable earlier.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Kiwigiwi » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:26 am

^ Have you seen Mary sue OCs being made? They very likely usually have sad pasts, followed by a flimsy justification for Mary sue traits. Being "broken" is a way to gain sympathy from the viewers so they won't question their lack of flaws. But it's still unacceptable.

Like I said earlier, nobody is perfect. You can't be perfect at everything just because you've had a painful past.
Is this considered a spoiler for Shane? Let's play safeShow
Shana isn't a Mary sue because she can be selfish, she's shown to be childish in certain aspect. She's also a character who, due to her past, has to learn how to properly deal with her emotions. It's a point of development for her THROUGHOUT the series.
To save spaceShow
Same can't be said for Asuna, as the only real development she gets is from being a strong, bad as woman to Kirito's wife in a split second.

Mary sues try to have a complicated character, and it shows with how often they jump from trope to trope. That's not how personality works.

If tragic pasts is an excuse for flawless characters, my past with abuse should have given me immortality or something. And yet, I'm still human. I make mistakes. Good written characters not only make mistakes, but also learn from them.

Good written characters are NOT those who are flawless and perfect in every way possible, and the writer half-heartedly justifies their perfection in life with a sad back story. Nothing can justify a Mary sue.
Spoilers for SAO?Show
Sword art online, however, focuses on the romance of Kirito and Asuna, who at most.. got only a few days to bond before completely falling in love with each other.
Also, I never said Hinagiku wasn't a Mary sue~
Last edited by Kiwigiwi on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Kiwigiwi » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:31 am

@ HasbeenaHibiki
Seconded. Yanderes are a very tough trope to tackle, because in general most of them are going to be psychopaths with no real reason for them acting obsessive and violent. This is a personal tastes kinda thing..but people who are obsessive to me, are highly unattractive.

@Lurke Oh my god, I feel you

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Re: Most hated characters

Post by RailWarrior » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:05 am

Kurogarasu wrote:
Spoilers for SAO?Show
Sword art online, however, focuses on the romance of Kirito and Asuna, who at most.. got only a few days to bond before completely falling in love with each other.
They had two years, actually.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Kiwigiwi » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:07 am

RailWarrior wrote:
Kurogarasu wrote:
Spoilers for SAO?Show
Sword art online, however, focuses on the romance of Kirito and Asuna, who at most.. got only a few days to bond before completely falling in love with each other.
They had two years, actually.
Except the anime saw the need to skip all that. That's like skipping all the in between episodes of how I met your mother and just watching the season finale.

I'm pretty I was supposed to mean few episodes. I somehow managed to screw up and say few days. My bad. Judging by how they would literally take out important chunks of development and still has the decency to claim that there is indeed development , it's pretty much as good as only have a few days.

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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Lurke_Skylurker » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:18 am

Kurogarasu wrote: @Lurke Oh my god, I feel you
To be fair though, if only ONE of them, even just ONE of them be more kind of assertive, or the author just didn't had plainly told the readers that they like each other, then their interactions might be tolerable and won't be torture to read. But sadly, no... you have full knowledge of their attraction for one another while you always get those annoying interactions over and over and over.... and over again
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by 10ZHAbin » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:26 am

I generally don't like cruel characters, but if they are cruel in an excellent way then I might even like them more than the main character.

As for Mary Sues, there aren't any in the anime that I dislike, the only one I can think of that I dislike is from a Chinese show (纯元@甄嬛传). There are plenty of characters that I feel like just dolls being pushed around in the shows and being too perfect may be part of the reason why. For that I don't like to their existence, but I don't dislike the character, since an empty doll has no feeling needed to be attached.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Toady » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:22 am

Lurke_Skylurker wrote:Though not necessarily hate, just dislike because I still find her cute sometimes. Kosaki Onodera. I'm sorry guys

Every chapter involving her and Raku alone is just... frustrating. All they do is blush, stutter, "I'm sorry", "He/She might not like me" thoughts when you know they like each other, etc. Their interactions frustrate me. Well, it's Raku's fault too, so...
That's like... the scenes I love the most in Nisekoi ^^;
I don't find this frustrating, but extremely cute and sweet. But ok, I can understand how you feel about it ^^'
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Homura » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:32 am

This thread is a bit out of my level <3. I indeed dislike some characters to certain degree in their anime, but saying hate is a little too much. I think I'll just read you people's posts.
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Nanami: Some people may think I really hate Nanami. But I'm in fact neutral at her in the anime. It's her supporters that keep "puzzling" me.

Btw, "In the anime" is omitted for following.
Kanade: I like Kanade.

Kosaki: My feeling is positive for Kosaki.

Mikoto: I'm neutral at her.

Asuna: I'm neutral at her.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Bastion » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:25 pm

Kurogarasu wrote:Like I said earlier, nobody is perfect. You can't be perfect at everything just because you've had a painful past.
To save spaceShow
Same can't be said for Asuna, as the only real development she gets is from being a strong, bad as woman to Kirito's wife in a split second.

Mary sues try to have a complicated character, and it shows with how often they jump from trope to trope. That's not how personality works.

If tragic pasts is an excuse for flawless characters, my past with abuse should have given me immortality or something. And yet, I'm still human. I make mistakes. Good written characters not only make mistakes, but also learn from them.

Good written characters are NOT those who are flawless and perfect in every way possible, and the writer half-heartedly justifies their perfection in life with a sad back story. Nothing can justify a Mary sue.
Jumping from trope to trope is practically part of the definition of many sues, they're usually the writer trying to make the 'perfect melding' of tropes and end up with a Sue.
Tropes unfortunately do not affect RL, though they are often reflections of such given heroic proportions.

Hinagiku is a very well written character (if you look at her introduction, the past is already there, even though the reader isn't aware of it yet), as are most of the Hayate cast, but almost all of them are Sues.
Kurogarasu wrote:
Spoilers for SAO?Show
Sword art online, however, focuses on the romance of Kirito and Asuna, who at most.. got only a few days to bond before completely falling in love with each other.
Actually, if you read Asuna's manga, you realize that she and Kirito knew each other for months beforehand, as she was one of the first players he meets once the game is started.
SpoilerShow
She actually hated him at first and thought he was a pervert just trying to find out what she wore as underclothes (which lead to a very amusing scene). Also, one of the first times they met, I was sure she was going to slap him for the comment he made. She bonded with her first sword (probably the one she uses in the anime) despite Kirito telling her it'd stop her from being an effective fighter as things got stronger.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Kiwigiwi » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:27 pm

I will say this again and again. Mary sues are not justified just for having a backstory. Making a character who is perfect in everything she does, but trying to justify her lack of flaws with a tragic back story is one of the laziest writing mechanics ever. It gives no development, and if any, they are more likely than not uncalled for. Why? Because flawless characters can never develop for the better. Only for the worse.

As for what happened in the manga..
SpoilerShow
I'm uninterested in the source material. I'm judging it from an anime only watcher, which, let's be frank, make up the majority of Asuna fans. And while I agree that she MAY be a better written character in the manga, judging from how you are unable to provide any examples of flaws Asuna has, she is still a Mary sue in the manga. Therefore any past and back stories she could possibly have will not be of any interest of me. I'm not a huge SAO fan to begin with.
We'll agree to disagree, yeah?

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Re: Most hated characters

Post by HasbeenaHibiki » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:36 pm

Everyone in Squad 11 minus Yachiru (Bleach)- Their arrogant behaviors makes me feel like they are annoying than badass as people claim them to be.
Kurosaki Ichigo (Bleach)- A Marty Stu with no appealing personality what so ever.
Sakamaki Izayoi (Mondaiji)- What I've seen from him so far I don't like him due to the same reasons as Ichigo above.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Bastion » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:49 pm

Kurogarasu wrote:I will say this again and again. Mary sues are not justified just for having a backstory. Making a character who is perfect in everything she does, but trying to justify her lack of flaws with a tragic back story is one of the laziest writing mechanics ever. It gives no development, and if any, they are more likely than not uncalled for. Why? Because flawless characters can never develop for the better. Only for the worse.

As for what happened in the manga..
SpoilerShow
I'm uninterested in the source material. I'm judging it from an anime only watcher, which, let's be frank, make up the majority of Asuna fans. And while I agree that she MAY be a better written character in the manga, judging from how you are unable to provide any examples of flaws Asuna has, she is still a Mary sue in the manga. Therefore any past and back stories she could possibly have will not be of any interest of me. I'm not a huge SAO fan to begin with.
We'll agree to disagree, yeah?
So you want to see her as a Mary Sue, and will ignore anything said to discount such claims. She has several flaws in the anime too, having been without the ability to watch videos for almost two years, I can't give you specific moments, but then, 99% of anime characters are the same, including Shana and Kuroyukihime (who is almost exactly the same character, but with even less backstory actually).
I actually can't name any of Shana's flaws either, but I know she has them. That doesn't make me remember her as a Mary Sue.

By talking about the Hayate characters, I'm pointing out that even with tragic backstories, characters can be 'Sues' but Asuna is written with the intent of making sure she isn't one. Thus the separate trope that she falls into, unless you ignore other material.

Anime is famous for cutting short characters backstories because there just isn't time for it. You have to go to source material to find most of their development.
Many of the characters I like have almost nothing in the anime, because there just isn't time for it. I sometimes don't like a character until I go to the manga and find out more about them.

I do agree with Hibiki, many of the Squad 11 members are rather annoying in their mentality for fighting (Yachiru is actually the worst though, she was named because she was playing with the blood of one of Kenpachi's victims), one of them kinda redeems himself when he reveals his Zanpakuto.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Kiwigiwi » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:57 am

^ ????

What part of "a Mary sue is still a Mary sue even if they have tragic back stories" do you not understand? Just because the authors claim to have a justification for perfect, flawless characters does not make them flawed. Back stories are NOT part of a character''s flaws. It's how those back stories give them flaws.
I've already named flaws of Shana's earlier, which you willfully ignored.
SpoilerShow
So you're saying that a Mary sue can still be sue even if she has a sad back story..but then go on to contradict yourself and say just because Asuna has a sad back story, she isn't one. That's quite hypocritical. And whether or not someone chooses to read the source material is up to their digression. You can't talk about someone having a problem with the anime adaptation by saying "you didn't read the source." Of course I don't read the source, I'm judging the anime for what it is and not what it's meant to be. And I'm sorry, nothing about Asuna's whole "I used to hate kirito and I used to have a sad backstory" is a flaw to her, therefore, she is a Mary sue. As simple as that. There is no "ignoring her meaning" because there simply is no meaning. Just because someone meant to make her a well written character, doesn't mean they succeeded.
Just because you like a character, does not make them a non-Mary sue. There's nothing wrong with liking one. It's just a huge pet peeve for me.

I don't think anything I say will ever get through your head. So I'm going to drop the discussion now. I hope you'll just agree that we have different opinions on the matter

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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Tokei Shikake Tenshi » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:26 pm

There isn't a huge list of characters I dislike, but my patience runs out quickly:
Shiodome Miuna:I’m the only one here who I can't stand Shiodome Miuna. I used to see her as a kid with genuine problems in the first half, but the time-skip was very frustrating. She can have feelings for Hikari for all I care; but I really dislike how she tries to integrate herself with the rest of the group. I just wanted to tear out my hair in anger when she marked her height along with the rest of the Shioshishio.

Mashiro Shiina: I don’t dislike Mashiro as much as I dislike Mashiro x Sora, but her reception still is far from favourable. When I question fans about her 'mentality', they answer that she’s affected by a severe case of Savant Syndrome. The difficulty isn’t displaying a character with a disorder- it’s portraying it. Mashiro just comes off to be as a girl who didn’t want to do her shit herself (courtesy of RailWarrior).

Yatogami Tohka: I don't like DAL in general, but I despise Tohka (although that might have something to do with Tohka fans hating on Origami...) You haven't experienced the milk of human kindness, fine. Her clinginess and naivety are annoying, and she's as dumb as f*ck.

Suzumiya Haruhi: Sexual harassment? Check. Atrocious behavior? Check. Sociopath? Check. God? Check. Mary Sue? Check
Yeah, I see her as a Mary Sue. She's strikingly beautiful and powerful, has an atrocious attitude, but never gets called out on it.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Kiwigiwi » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:32 pm

^ I agree with some of the points you've presented. Not all, though..but that's part of being unique individuals.

I haven't seen Nagi No Asakura, so I can't comment on that. As for Mashiro, I can't agree with you more. People often make the excuse that she's been raised as an artist and nothing more, and that she is literally physically incapable of doing things for herself. The tone of the story, coupled with Mashiro's characteristics and actions in certain cases tell me otherwise. If you want to portray a mental disability, do it right.

To be honest, I highly dislike Origami..but there isn't any date a live girls I like in particular anyway, so I guess I'm neutral on the matter?

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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Bastion » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:34 pm

Kurogarasu wrote:I've already named flaws of Shana's earlier, which you willfully ignored.
Sounds very similar to what you're doing to our saying that Asuna isn't a Mary Sue. You seem to have completely ignored my statement about her being so attached to her first treasure sword that she's probably still using it, even though it became next to useless about level 10.

CIP: Most people hate Orihime for her continual chanting of Ichigo's name when he gets killed, I just read the manga version of that event, and the scene takes up less than half-a-page in there.
Hinagiku is still a Mary Sue despite the fact that before the story was started, she was going to be the main character, and the anime hasn't even shown any of the actual plot.

Essentially, your claiming that you can hate a character for only the things you can see and nothing else.
Watch FMA and then FMA: Brotherhood and you'll see how different characters can be when you follow the manga version vs when you only look at the anime. It doesn't make sense to ignore what's truly there and say you hate a character because of it. That's hating someone for part of their personality and not the whole package.
Kurogarasu wrote:
SpoilerShow
So you're saying that a Mary sue can still be sue even if she has a sad back story..but then go on to contradict yourself and say just because Asuna has a sad back story, she isn't one. That's quite hypocritical. And whether or not someone chooses to read the source material is up to their digression. You can't talk about someone having a problem with the anime adaptation by saying "you didn't read the source." Of course I don't read the source, I'm judging the anime for what it is and not what it's meant to be. And I'm sorry, nothing about Asuna's whole "I used to hate kirito and I used to have a sad backstory" is a flaw to her, therefore, she is a Mary sue. As simple as that. There is no "ignoring her meaning" because there simply is no meaning. Just because someone meant to make her a well written character, doesn't mean they succeeded.
Quite often, the writer of a character has no input as to their depiction in an anime, so yes, you can say that.
Asuna is similar to a Mary Sue, but there are reasons for the way she's acting, like many other characters.
What you're doing is essentially the same as the person who brought me to this forum hating a character because they looked and acted like another character they liked (by different authors I believe even), ignoring the reveal that the two characters are one-and-the-same just known by different names.
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Kiwigiwi » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:48 pm

@Bastion

How does using the same sword despite it being worn out make her a flawed character? That's like saying "My OC is flawed because she's attached to her nokia and refuses to change to an iphone". Sentimentality isn't a flaw; neither is using a flawed instrument. I'm talking about character flaws.
SpoilerShow
The reason I "ignored" that statement was because I didn't think you were trying to list a flaw of hers. Using an old sword doesn't make her flawed. Being stubborn is a flaw. Being impatient is a flaw. Having trouble socializing is a flaw. Pride is a flaw.

Shana's past makes her flawed. Because of her training, she has become unable to comprehend what love is. So much that she struggles with the meaning of love, the meaning of emotions. She develops from it over time. THAT is the true definition of character development.

Asuna doesn't develop. She's the same character before and after the story began. Saying she used to hate kirito is not a flaw. Do you even know what flaws are? Flaws are things a character themselves have that make them imperfect beings. Shana is imperfect because she is selfish and has to practically learn how to love someone.

More than anything, you're the one ignoring my main argument; that characters who are unrealistically perfect are Mary sues, whether or not they have authors who try to justify them. Asuna and Shana both have sad childhoods. What set them apart is their flaws NOW. Their personality flaws in the present. Not in the past, but PRESENT. Shana is stubborn, sometimes impatient and sometimes outright naive. What flaws does Asuna have. If you can give me ONE legitimate flaw that she has; a legitimate flaw that actually has something to do with her personality and character rather than a mere sword, then I'll consider your argument.
Also about reading the manga:
SpoilerShow
People have the choice whether or not they want to read the source material. I've said this on the jojo fandom, and I will say it here. DON'T tell people "you cannot judge something because you don't read or play all of the adaptations of a series". You're essentially shutting down any criticisms an anime watcher has for the ANIME-version of characters just because there are other materials.

What I'm judging is Asuna's character from what I watch from the anime. I don't care about how she is in the manga. If a person isn't allowed to give their opinions on something just because they haven't read or played any other adaptations of the same story, by that logic 80% of Shana haters are unjustified, as they most probably have never read the manga.
The same thing for danganronpa. I've never told a person "you can't say that the story / character / setting is bad because you've never played the game". I merely encourage them to play the game and tell them the flaws of the anime which are mostly rectified in the game. If they don't want to play it, that's their choice.
I said I would end this conversation here but yeah..
I doubt you would listen to my offer to part with the mutual understanding that we have differing opinions,but well, to each his own. It's my opinion that Asuna is a mary sue. It's your opinion that she isn't. If you can't live with that, I'm sorry.

I hope this will well and truly be my last reply to you on this matter. I don't really want to keep going back and forth about this. I respect your opinion, even though I may not agree with it. So I hope you will give me that same respect.

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HasbeenaHibiki
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2020 Female Favorite: Nakano Miku
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by HasbeenaHibiki » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:53 pm

Aragaki Ayase- I hate it how she is a bitch who seems to not accept her friends' hobbies which makes me ponder if she is faking the friendship at times, then she is all sympathetic looking later on.
Kousaka Kirino and Mikazuki Yozora- I find them way too tsuntsun for my taste.
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Bastion
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Re: Most hated characters

Post by Bastion » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:59 pm

Kurogarasu wrote:Using an old sword doesn't make her flawed. Being stubborn is a flaw. Being impatient is a flaw. Having trouble socializing is a flaw. Pride is a flaw.
Given that the statements you made about being flaws are what I was pointing out.. She's stubborn, refusing to change swords after at least Kirito tells her that the sword will be useless.
The sword itself isn't the flaw, her reasoning is the flaw.
Kurogarasu wrote:Shana's past makes her flawed. Because of her training, she has become unable to comprehend what love is. So much that she struggles with the meaning of love, the meaning of emotions. She develops from it over time. THAT is the true definition of character development.

Asuna doesn't develop. She's the same character before and after the story began. Saying she used to hate kirito is not a flaw. Do you even know what flaws are? Flaws are things a character themselves have that make them imperfect beings. Shana is imperfect because she is selfish and has to practically learn how to love someone.
The statement about Shana and most other girls being Mary Sue's at the beginning was pointing out that, when you first meet a character, they have no flaws, that's just how anime works.
The flaws with Hinagiku are there at the beginning, but you don't see them until later.

Also about reading the manga:
Kurogarasu wrote:
SpoilerShow
People have the choice whether or not they want to read the source material. I've said this on the jojo fandom, and I will say it here. DON'T tell people "you cannot judge something because you don't read or play all of the adaptations of a series". You're essentially shutting down any criticisms an anime watcher has for the ANIME-version of characters just because there are other materials.

What I'm judging is Asuna's character from what I watch from the anime. I don't care about how she is in the manga. If a person isn't allowed to give their opinions on something just because they haven't read or played any other adaptations of the same story, by that logic 80% of Shana haters are unjustified, as they most probably have never read the manga.
So you're saying that I can't argue against a character not having flaws because I refuse to watch more than the first episode of an anime?
You're shutting down the argument because you refuse to see all of Asuna, not because the anime depicts her in a certain way (which actually, it doesn't. I watched the entire first season and never saw anything of her being 'unflawed' in there. She clearly had flaws, they were just mostly glossed over in the anime.)
So you're alright with me calling Shana a Mary Sue then?

And BTW, despite my statement about how Orihime is redeemed a little, she's still annoying to me because of other changes to her personality within the same arc. The event was simply the quickest example. The arc turned her into a 'princess in a tower' and turned her powers into god-like ones, which neither was hinted at earlier.
Someone else, who supposedly got his powers similarly is one of the weakest fighters in the series actually.

Although I don't like him, I won't say that I hate Gilgamesh because I haven't read the VN or other sources that might explain him a little more. I will say that it would take a lot to redeem him though.
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