About the value of Heavenly Tiara

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About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by LOveLive! » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:29 am

Last year, Itsuka Kotori won the Heavenly Tiara with no Necklaces. This happened in 6 years since Fate Testarossa. But this year, Chitanda Eru did it again, and this happened two years in a row. I felt some strangeness from these two events.

ISML has three main awards, Necklace, Circlet, and Heavenly Tiara. To get a Necklace, a contestant has to win the Necklace Showdown, and to advance to the Showdown, she needs at least 6 wins. Then what about Heavenly Tiara? To get this, she needs at least 6 wins as well. Even if she did not well in Post Season I, if she wins 4 times straight afterwards, then she can get the Tiara, and Itsuka Kotori actually did. In case of Chitanda Eru, current Tiara bearer, she has even never participated in any Necklace Showdowns!

Then, a question comes to mind: Isn't it harder to get a Necklace than Heavenly Tiara? Is Heavenly Tiara, the title of ISML champion really more valuable than a Necklace? I feel like recent Heavenly Tiara is not like 'Tiara'.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Chibasa » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:40 am

To win necklace you need to win 6 matches but you can face weaker characters like #17-#36. I think it's important to consider it.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Just » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:41 am

I don't think value is measured that way. Rather, the values of the various hardwares are preassigned by the organizers, and the rest is left for voters to perceive. This is similar to the NBA Player of the Month vs Finals MVP, a local football league championship vs the World Cup, or an ATP250 tournament vs a Grand Slam title.

Some people think Necklaces are as good as Tiaras because they give something similar: a poster. Some think Necklaces are completely unimportant and only Tiaras matters. The different perceptions by different voters make the voting population and level of competition different, so it's difficult to draw a conclusion 0 0

Oh yeah forgot about what Chibasa said... The levels of competition faced are different 0 0
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by LOveLive! » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:55 am

Chibasa wrote:To win necklace you need to win 6 matches but you can face weaker characters like #17-#36. I think it's important to consider it.
I think the gap between the level of regular season and post season is decreasing recently. This year's lower tiers were possible enough to upset top tiers.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Momo » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:17 am

Not that I have an opinion, but I'ma point out: the Necklace showdowns are group matches, the road to Tiara is a series of head-to-heads.
I don't know what the implications of this statement are.

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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Fuijiwara » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:17 am

Well, this is my opinion on Necklace and Tiara

For Necklace, the impact of losing a match is significantly smaller compared to losing a match for the Tiara ( as long as you don't lose a lot ) as seen by how characters like Mashiro who went 6-1 in Topaz was able to win the necklace despite the loss of one round. This is due to high SDO from other matches so even if she did lose that one match, her SDO was still high enough to warrant a win.

Now for Tiara, losing is something one should avoid.Even in PS I, if you lose one match, you risk being unable to rank the top 16 girls overall and even if you do, you'll have to face a low seed placement, which is rather detrimental towards one's chance to gaining the Heavenly Tiara. And in PS II, a loss means elimination. From there, losing is unacceptable.

But I see your point though, In Fate's case, she was probably unlucky enough to not get a necklace, but there was no doubt her strength was high enough to warrant the Tiara win. For Kotori and Eru however, they didn't seem to show the strength they had while winning the Tiara in previous rounds, which makes you wonder whether winning the Tiara nowadays is easier than it was last time.

In conclusion, while the quality of the win of the Tiara this year may have lowered, it's value is still much more than of a necklace because for necklace, you have other factors to help you even if you lose one or two matches. But for Tiara, a loss has a lot of consequences to it because there are no other factors to help you there and one loss could easily mean a bye-bye towards any chance of obtaining the ultimate prize.
Last edited by Fuijiwara on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by minhtam1638 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:20 am

If anything, the value of the Heavenly Tiara is even greater now than it was before.

For the necklaces, 7 contestants qualify, regardless of exactly how well they did (undefeated or otherwise). Aka, you can lose a match and still qualify for the necklace match.

For the Tiara, if you lose, you're out.

Ergo, it's much harder to win the Tiara. Therefore, it has much more prestige.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Homura » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:34 am

People who don't give a damn to ISML will only ask you, "Who is the winner of year 20XX?" You see the true value of Heavenly Tiara.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by RockmanXt » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:29 am

Momo wrote:Not that I have an opinion, but I'ma point out: the Necklace showdowns are group matches, the road to Tiara is a series of head-to-heads.
I don't know what the implications of this statement are.
I implicate that, hate vote are recently more important. As they can effect to head-to-head matches result more than group matches.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by matchbaby » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:43 am

Actually, it comes to how the fans treat it.
If the fans look down on necklace and keep all their power until ps2, I think they can have a really great chance to compete for tiara.
However, if the fans think necklace is also important, then you need to choose.
I use an old Chinese essay written by Mencius (孟子) (about 2300 year ago) for an example:
"Fish, that's what I want; Hand of Bear, that's also I want, if I can't only get one of them, I will then choose the hand of bear."

However, in reality, human are selfish and we never feel "enough", we don't care about one, we want all.
ISML is a game, you can't win anything, even Kanade lost her first year, Mikoto always lost when she comes to an "unimportant" match.
Tiara, surely it values greater than necklace, but who dislike necklace? Who want to give necklaces to other if we can get it?
The answer is no, no one will give up.

The trend is, stronger but not absolutely strong characters can get necklace as well as anti-votes.
If you are not absolutely strong, getting a necklace is maximum, getting a circlet gives you enemy, hence getting a tiara is impossible.
What means strong?
Strong = you win the most things?
no
Strong = You are the final one who can smile.

Eru and Kotori, undoubtedly, they are strong, not because they wins everything, it is because they know what is the time for giving up and what is the time for pushing hard.
----------
In short, I treat ISML as a mind game, no matter how many prices you get, if you don't know about giving up and pushing hard, you are not strong, you are just a war machine.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Reverend » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:43 am

I see Heavenly Tiara as a symbol of victory, not power or domination.
Necklace is more suited as a symbol of power, but even that is not absolute because the performance of one character in that season does not make up for the whole necklace scoring.
(Humans don't need power. They need to get the satisfaction of getting (all) what they want.)

btw, I'm a bit disagree with this, that's why I took the liberty to reword it (gomen ;))
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Homura » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:45 am

You don't need to edit it, really.
matchbaby wrote: Eru and Kotori, undoubtedly, they are strong, not because they wins everything, it is because they know what is the time for giving up and what is the time for pushing hard.
This sounds like a sentence from the closing paragraph of your essay on an essay exam. It would work well there, but not here. You really think in that way? then you must have overestimated their supporters. But I don't think that's the case. I think you just have overargued your point.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by matchbaby » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:50 am

Homura wrote:You don't need to edit it, really.
matchbaby wrote: Eru and Kotori, undoubtedly, they are strong, not because they wins everything, it is because they know what is the time for giving up and what is the time for pushing hard.
This sounds like a sentence from the closing paragraph of your essay on an essay exam. It would work well there, but not here. You really think in that way? then you must have overestimated their supporters. But I don't think that's the case. I think you just have overargued your point.
Well, I don't want to argue whether I have overestimated the voters or you have underestimated the voters, what I want to say is, nothing is an excuse, lose is a lose, win is a win, you are weak if you lose, you are strong if you win.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Homura » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:56 am

We don't have any conflicts on the loser part. I just quote what I wrote yesterday,
Homura wrote:I have to say it's Chitanda Eru who won this year. The loser shall assumes the major responsibility for losing, as always.
But I think you're unnecessarily "beautifying" the winner. I can't be sure about what the winners actually did, so I just keep silent on that part.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Just » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:51 am

I guess we can consider winning the Necklaces and winning the Tiara as two different kinds of strength. For Necklace, it's more about who has more support, and the 'anti-vote/hate' component plays a smaller role. While for the Tiara, minimizing the'anti-vote/hate' component becomes more important. If you can't control that part, you won't win till the end, and that part is also considered a kind of strength
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by LOveLive! » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:33 pm

minhtam1638 wrote:If anything, the value of the Heavenly Tiara is even greater now than it was before.

For the necklaces, 7 contestants qualify, regardless of exactly how well they did (undefeated or otherwise). Aka, you can lose a match and still qualify for the necklace match.

For the Tiara, if you lose, you're out.

Ergo, it's much harder to win the Tiara. Therefore, it has much more prestige.
That just increases 'pressure', not 'difficulty'. Even though a loss means the end, the require wins are only 4 coz this premise is not applyed to Post Season I.

Fuijiwara wrote:In conclusion, while the quality of the win of the Tiara this year may have lowered, it's value is still much more than of a necklace because for necklace, you have other factors to help you even if you lose one or two matches. But for Tiara, a loss has a lot of consequences to it because there are no other factors to help you there and one loss could easily mean a bye-bye towards any chance of obtaining the ultimate prize.
Umm... You might have a point. Now I can somewhat understand after reading this paragraph. Thanks. :)
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by minhtam1638 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:04 pm

LOveLive! wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:If anything, the value of the Heavenly Tiara is even greater now than it was before.

For the necklaces, 7 contestants qualify, regardless of exactly how well they did (undefeated or otherwise). Aka, you can lose a match and still qualify for the necklace match.

For the Tiara, if you lose, you're out.

Ergo, it's much harder to win the Tiara. Therefore, it has much more prestige.
That just increases 'pressure', not 'difficulty'. Even though a loss means the end, the require wins are only 4 coz this premise is not applyed to Post Season I.
Except the required wins for the Tiara isn't 4. It's approximately 30 head-to-head wins. Think about it:

To win the Tiara, a contestant must do the following:

A: Have a sufficient number of nominations to qualify
B: Get through a handful of preliminary rounds
C: Win at least 23 times in the Regular Season to guarantee a spot in PS I
D: Win at least 3 times in the Regular Season to guarantee a spot in PS II
E: Win 4 times to win the Tiara.

No matter how you slice it, that's freaking hard to do, given the thousands and thousands of anime ladies that attempt to qualify for ISML.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Chibasa » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:44 pm

By the way, I forgot to said it, but in 2014 Kotori don't win any necklace but must share votes with some other DAL characters. In every necklace round, there was two or three DAL characters, and they sure have some common supporters. In fact, DAL characters was so powerful, they can't have any necklace.

So I don't think we can draw some conclusions with 2014 year about Necklaces value.
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Lulu » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:37 am

Tiara is still that one.

I think, it's Tenshi & Railgun & Kuroneko who led to the FALSE IMPRESSION, that wins in neclace period and tiara period do have some relations. They are exactly strong enough to shine brightly the whole season and have a good ending, they are the ones.
So when it came to these two years, after the results released, some of us were disappointed, surprised or angry , but not for "Kotori/Eru won the tiara", actually no one would deny Kotori/Eru's competence and 'moe' . It's just because the results don't match our expectations and those old thoughts. Therefore,partially, it's our MIND should be to blame.

Didn't mean to be so pessimistic, but I would still say, though you perform best in the regular season(including neclace rounds) and ps I, or you are the most competitive one who deserves the tiara among all the contestants, in the tiara finals, it's nothing.

This is what I learned since I started to vote in 2012.

BTW, obviously, ‘Champion of Champions’ is rather attractive now. -_-
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Re: About the value of Heavenly Tiara

Post by Jiharo » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:40 am

matchbaby wrote: In short, I treat ISML as a mind game, no matter how many prices you get, if you don't know about giving up and pushing hard, you are not strong, you are just a war machine.
But Kanade is BOTH strong, AND a war machine :O
minhtam1638 wrote:
LOveLive! wrote:
minhtam1638 wrote:If anything, the value of the Heavenly Tiara is even greater now than it was before.

For the necklaces, 7 contestants qualify, regardless of exactly how well they did (undefeated or otherwise). Aka, you can lose a match and still qualify for the necklace match.

For the Tiara, if you lose, you're out.

Ergo, it's much harder to win the Tiara. Therefore, it has much more prestige.
That just increases 'pressure', not 'difficulty'. Even though a loss means the end, the require wins are only 4 coz this premise is not applyed to Post Season I.
Except the required wins for the Tiara isn't 4. It's approximately 30 head-to-head wins. Think about it:

To win the Tiara, a contestant must do the following:

A: Have a sufficient number of nominations to qualify
B: Get through a handful of preliminary rounds
C: Win at least 23 times in the Regular Season to guarantee a spot in PS I
D: Win at least 3 times in the Regular Season to guarantee a spot in PS II
E: Win 4 times to win the Tiara.

No matter how you slice it, that's freaking hard to do, given the thousands and thousands of anime ladies that attempt to qualify for ISML.
Did you mean PS I instead of RS?

EDIT: Also, what's with the saltiness of Eru winning? Man, so many salty things this year when Eru won.....
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